Evidence of meeting #97 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nancy Morrison  Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual
Barbara Gosse  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking
Janine Benedet  Professor of Law, Peter A. Allard School of Law, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Mélanie Carpentier  Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you.

Mr. Rankin, was that—

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

No, that's fine.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I'd just point out that Germany has 10 times the population that Sweden does, which should also be borne in mind whenever presenting facts.

Mr. Van Kesteren.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON

Thank you for being here.

I think this is a disturbing subject for a lot of us. It's something that we just don't realize is taking place. I have three sons who are police officers. I remember when they first started talking about trafficking, I asked them if this was really taking place and they told me, yes, increasingly. Their response, for the most part, was that their hands were tied. There was so little they could do.

We banter back and forth about whether or not stricter punishment is the solution to this, or if we should use other solutions. I'm reminded of an old song, from back in the '70s: “I'd love to change the world—but I don't know what to do”.

I'll bet you would know what to do if you had the opportunity or the power. I'm just thinking that if there were laws to prohibit the buying and trafficking of sex over.... Well, let's put an age limit on. That could be a start. Is that something that could be done?

If there's a woman you are connected to and she happens to be under 21, let's say, and it can be proven that you are involved with sex trafficking, and you wind up in the slammer for a while, if you received some really hard punishment, wouldn't that be a deterrent? Or perhaps you could identify the businesses involved. If aiding and abetting were a charge against somebody who was pimping these girls, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction?

Judge, I understand and respect that some people don't think jails work. Is that the prevailing opinion amongst all those who are involved in the sex trafficking—

4:45 p.m.

Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual

Nancy Morrison

No. There are times, obviously, when jails do come in and must be effective, and are effective.

There are already sections in the Criminal Code to deal with sex with the underaged, and everything else. There are tough penalties, as there should be.

There is no will that I know of, certainly in this City of Vancouver or this province, to spend the money to investigate and give the police, like your three sons, the tools they need to do a proper investigation. Some of that takes a long time because it's hard to find witnesses who will testify.

The prosecution in the Moazami case was an example of incredible police work and wonderful prosecution work. They dealt with these young victims and they got all of them to testify. That is so hard; you have no idea.

The police have not been encouraged to go ahead. I don't think they've been given the means or the encouragement. Of course, the financial means are a big factor. If you find traffickers, I'd be the first one to try to throw the book at them.

4:45 p.m.

Prof. Janine Benedet

We do have laws in place. I'd like to see the definition of trafficking brought into line with the definition in the Palermo protocol. It's easy to arrest men for buying sex, but we have the Vancouver Police Department that has a stated policy that they won't enforce the law, that they're not going to enforce that provision in section 286.1, and they've encouraged other police departments in British Columbia to adopt the same approach. I don't understand it. We don't have to go to Sweden for a model. We can look to King County in Washington state, which has done excellent work using technology to target the most prolific johns and bring criminal sanctions against them without ever involving the women.

We have the tools at our disposal, but we have no will. You can keep ratcheting up the punishment all you want. If there's no enforcement and no convictions, that's the problem. It's the failure to enforce that is the issue. I think ratcheting up the punishment actually makes convictions less likely. We saw that when the penalties went way up for purchasing girls under age. We saw men arguing mistake of age, that they thought she was older, and they were being acquitted. I think there's a reluctance to impose those stiff penalties.

I've been to the john school a number of times in Toronto when it existed. It was a very interesting process in which men were diverted out of the criminal justice system. They did this day of training and paid a fine that went to an organization called Streetlight, which I don't think exists anymore.

It's an interesting model, but it is a model in which there is no criminal conviction, in which there is no criminal record, leaving aside the issue of punishment. When the men there were asking questions about what would happen or what wouldn't happen if they weren't there, that's what they were afraid of. They were afraid of the accountability of a public criminal conviction that other people would find out about. That was the deterrent—not the person who came in to talk about sexually transmitted diseases, not the woman who had been in prostitution who came in to talk about how she had been abused as a child and how she had ended up there. What they cared about was that their families might find out, that they might not be able to cross the border to the U.S.

So I know. The studies we have show that's the biggest deterrent, some kind of public criminal accountability for this behaviour. It doesn't need to be attached to a severe punishment, but it does have to be public.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

Ms. Carpentier, the floor is yours.

4:50 p.m.

Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

Mélanie Carpentier

Thank you.

I am fortunate to be testifying before you as a professional and as a survivor. It's vital to understand that we've been brainwashed into not believing in the justice system. The existing laws are no help when we want to file a complaint, and they don't support us. We have no protection. I'm using “we” to include the women I call my sisters in combat. That puts us off from seeing the process through to the end. It's really hard.

Raising fines for pimps is all well and good, but the law as a whole needs to be reviewed. It needs to really support victims.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

The last question is for Mr. Fragiskatos.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to colleagues. I don't sit on this committee, but I'm glad to take part in the conversation today. Thank you also to the witnesses.

We've heard, in terms of root causes, that global poverty plays a critical factor in all of this. Professor, you mentioned that at the outset of your remarks. Anyone who has looked at human trafficking knows poverty is a very relevant factor when it comes to the causes of trafficking in general terms. We've also heard today about the importance of data collection in helping to compile a secure and accurate picture of the problem, where it exists and what's being done to confront it. What I want to ask is in that vein, bringing together both of these ideas.

I want to put the question to Ms. Gosse. What can you tell the committee about the state of data collection in developing countries? If we look at global poverty we see that it's concentrated almost overwhelmingly in the global south. I'm going to guess that data collection, where it exists as it relates to human trafficking, is almost nil there. With that in mind, do you think there's a place for industrialized democracies such as Canada to assist developing countries in crafting and creating data collection systems to monitor human trafficking and to collaborate with them on that basis in concert?

4:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking

Barbara Gosse

Canada has a reputation for being a wonderful diplomatic source for information and intelligence and co-operation on human rights issues around the world. There's no question about that.

Quite frankly, though, Canadians want to see an answer to this issue in this country. We've recently watched ministers who have looked at this issue in other countries around the world, and there's no question that there are human rights issues that are incredibly important and need assistance and intelligence. However, human trafficking is happening at deplorable rates in this country, to minors and to indigenous women and girls.

We have no data collection mechanism here, so it behooves us to encourage and develop a system for our country here and now. Now that this is on the table for us to look at, we need to start investing in this country rather than developing data systems that can be used on human trafficking internationally.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Can we not do both? It's not an either-or situation. If a key source of the problem is global poverty, then it can be argued that we ought to help developing countries in whatever way we can to tackle these challenges. You make the case that data collection is very important in this regard, and other organizations that look at this, particularly in the United States, have also put this idea forward. If so, we can look at international efforts that could be made as well as doing what's needed here as far as creating a better way to collect data domestically within the country is concerned.

4:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking

Barbara Gosse

More needs to be done within Canada on this issue, though, particularly looking at indigenous communities, looking at the poverty levels that affect kids in care graduating out of the system, looking at homeless youth, and looking at those people who are vulnerable in this and are living in poverty as well. A lot more needs to be done in Canada on this, particularly with respect to data collection. We can then utilize what works in our systems to work in other countries as well.

4:55 p.m.

Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual

Nancy Morrison

I just want to say that poverty isn't really the driving force in worldwide sex trafficking. It's organized crime. It's the fastest-growing, biggest criminal industry in the world. Poverty is one of the reasons there are so many vulnerable people around the world, but don't forget about organized crime. It's huge.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I don't mean to dismiss it, judge. All I'm saying is that even for organized criminals there has to be a source. You have to have desperate people, and poverty creates desperation. That's my point.

May 10th, 2018 / 4:55 p.m.

Former Judge of the Supreme Court of British Columbia, As an Individual

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

I want to take this opportunity to thank all the witnesses very much for your testimony. We had a panel that agreed on not decriminalizing the purchase of sex; we had a panel that talked about and took note of the Palermo protocol and the different definitions between domestic Canadian law and the Palermo protocol. We got the information about the records and the importance of bolstering the Canadian system of collecting data, so thank you very much. We also heard that the section in the Criminal Code related to prostitution near schools should be removed.

I very much appreciate the panel's input. As we always do when we finish hearing from all the panels, we will remember what you said and try to take it into consideration. Thank you very much, ladies.

Thank you very much, Ms. Carpentier.

I'm sorry that most of this meeting was in English. I hope you don't mind.

4:55 p.m.

Director, Victim Services, La Maison de Mélanie

Mélanie Carpentier

I speak English; it's just that it's faster for me to speak in French.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Perfect.

The meeting is adjourned.