Evidence of meeting #13 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was identity.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Okay.
What you want then is for people to have access to psychotherapy services. Is that correct?
1:05 p.m.
Representative of the Comité de réflexion sur l'identité de genre, Pour les droits des femmes du Québec
That's right.
1:05 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Would you be prepared to go as far as to accept psychotherapy aimed at influencing gender identity or orientation, but not necessarily in the sense of an individual's identity. What you are, or are not, in favour of here is not clear to me.
1:05 p.m.
Representative of the Comité de réflexion sur l'identité de genre, Pour les droits des femmes du Québec
What we want is for parents and children to be able to opt for psychotherapy, for the possibility of choosing affirmative therapy, and for the government not to prohibit such decisions.
When you opt for psychotherapy, it means that you do not necessarily want the child to undergo biomedicalization. We don't want the child to be automatically directed towards validation. These children are suffering. Half the children who go to gender clinics also suffer from what is called comorbidity, which is to say that they are also suffering from another mental illness. You could ask Dr. Cantor or Dr. Zucker to confirm these numbers.
The questions that need to be asked are about children's consent and self-identification. What we would like is for psychologists to be able to help determine the causes of suffering, so that they can help the children to understand it.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.
Now we'll go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes. Go ahead, sir.
1:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today.
I want to extend particular thanks to Mr. Ashcroft for his kind words at the beginning. I just want to say to him that one of the privileges of being a member of Parliament is that we often get to meet individuals like him who are incredibly brave and incredibly dedicated to telling their story in order to make the world a better place for others. I thank him for his advocacy and for being here today. I know it's not easy.
I really think the committee needs to give a bit more time today to the voice of survivors. I would like to ask Mr. Ashcroft, who I know works with a survivors' group, to maybe talk about that group and what that group has found in terms of what survivors really need.
1:05 p.m.
Co-Founder and Human Rights and Social Justice Advisor, CT Survivors
Thank you so much for your question. I greatly appreciate it. That was actually in my speech.
Essentially, we have founded ctsurvivors.org, which is an organization where conversion therapy survivors meet all across Canada and the United States. We are partnered with Brave Network in Melbourne, because they are doing the same thing as well.
Essentially, what we are looking for is survivor supports, further research, having a healing space where we can celebrate friendships, and mental health. We have some clinicians who are on the board with us as well. We do have a legal team that helps survivors as well.
Thank you.
1:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Can you tell us a bit more about the common challenges you find that survivors are facing as a result of conversion therapy?
1:05 p.m.
Co-Founder and Human Rights and Social Justice Advisor, CT Survivors
Survivors have a tough time with relationships and relational issues.
I am thankful that I had weekly counselling early on, so that way I can process what I have been through. A lot of survivors don't have the money and don't have the support. I think it's very important to realize that when we're working with people who have experienced trauma, we have to consider that it will take time and quite possibly they will never heal from that trauma.
We're working on creating a safe place for survivors, and we're looking for your support.
1:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you for that.
The final thing I would ask you, as the voice of survivors—and I know you mentioned some figures—is whether you can give us again a sense of the number of people who are still being subjected to various forms of conversion therapy.
I think there is a tendency for reasonable Canadians to say, “Gee, this surely must not be happening anymore.”
1:10 p.m.
Co-Founder and Human Rights and Social Justice Advisor, CT Survivors
It is. In short, there are a couple of allegations that were the subject of a VICE article about conversion therapy practices that are happening in Kingston, Ontario. We have to amplify those voices, because they are voices that aren't being heard as much and it is still happening within the cracks.
1:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thanks.
I now want to turn back to Dr. Wells on the question of consent, because I think he made a very important contribution here.
When the minister said that he fears a charter challenge, do you think, Dr. Wells, that there is a substantive basis for fearing that charge would succeed when there are these legitimate questions about consent being possible?
1:10 p.m.
Canada Research Chair, MacEwan University, As an Individual
No, I don't share the same concerns, nor do the legal experts I have consulted with, including those who have argued already before the Supreme Court of Canada on the LGBTQ issues.
Quite simply, that is because of the clear research we've heard time and time again from all of the major professional health and medical associations, which have denounced any research or scientific support behind this notion of conversion therapy. What we do know are the harms and the dangers that it causes.
I think the best description of conversion therapy I've seen is that it is nothing more than a dangerous lie. It's an abusive, fraudulent, coercive practice, so this notion that one can give consent to something that doesn't work.... The government restricts all kinds of adult behaviours. You can't drive your car without a seatbelt. That might be part of your freedom of expression, but we know that it's not only to protect the individual but also to protect others.
There is a compelling public health interest in extending this legislation to include all adults, much as Quebec has done in their legislation—which they're debating right now, Bill 70—and many of the municipalities across Canada ensure that their legislation covers all ages.
1:10 p.m.
NDP
1:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I want to turn to Dr. Zucker and his concern about this question of what “exploration” means.
I wonder, and I have heard this from many people.... If we replaced “exploration” with something a bit more specific, language along the lines that what's allowed is “the exploration and development of an integrated personal identity, without favouring any particular sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression”, is this the kind of thing that Dr. Zucker is looking for in terms of being more specific in that section of the bill?
1:10 p.m.
Psychologist and Professor (Status Only), University of Toronto, As an Individual
It's a little better but it's still inadequate.
I think that if politicians want to take this legislation seriously in terms of how it would work for clinical practitioners, what they need to do is put this part of the legislation on pause and convene a panel of experts in the area of gender dysphoria so they can come up with a proposed consensus guideline as to what exactly constitutes “exploration”.
Failing that, the ambiguity will create a lot of anxiety.
1:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison. Your time is up.
It looks like that is all the time we will have today with our witnesses. On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank the witnesses for appearing today and for their very compelling testimony.
I look forward to any written submissions that you have provided or may be providing going forward. Thank you all very much.
The meeting is now adjourned.