Justice Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2020

[André Schutten]

With respect then, I'd say just take the example of my co-panellist Mr. Ruba. He sought out counselling, talk therapy from a professional, to try to align his religious convictions—and Jose can speak for himself of course—with a particular thing that he was struggling with—same-sex attraction in his work.

The service that's offered by the person or the professional he went to is prohibited by this bill. I quote to you the justice minister's own words in committee two days ago, where he said that talk therapy is covered by this definition.

So outdated modes or methods like shock therapy and all kinds of other horrible practices should be banned, absolutely—

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Again, I'm going to interrupt you because I don't have much time.

With respect, I disagree with you again. This bill specifically allows for adults to seek therapy if that's what they wish to do. To quote your colleague, he said we should allow people to set their own goals, and this bill, with respect, does just that.

The prohibition that you've just enunciated...I don't see it in the legislation.

[André Schutten]

The barrier there is, of course, that the professional that Mr. Ruba sought and got counselling from cannot make money doing it, can't advertise it, and so for people like Mr. Ruba, his rights then are interfered with because he can't get that help, whereas every other Canadian can.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

No, no, no—he is allowed to get therapy. This legislation makes it against the law for people to promote it, make money and advertise. Those are two distinctly different things, sir, and I think that's maybe where the confusion lies.

Unfortunately, I'm out of time, so we'll have to stop there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Maloney. That is indeed all the time that we have.

Mr. Fortin, go ahead for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would also like to thank all the witnesses who are joining us today. I know that it's not easy to participate virtually, but their testimony is precious for informing our thought process on this bill, on both sides, regardless of the position they hold.

I would like to continue the discussion with Mr. Schutten about his concern.

Once again, I also understand that everyone seems to agree in saying that conversion therapies must be banned. According to certain witnesses, we should go further and ban them for everyone and not only for minors and those who are being forced to participate. That's one thing.

Conversely, some would want to allow objective discussions in good faith with young people, for instance. What comes to mind first are discussions between a pastor and young children in the community. We are concerned because we understand that the pastor has a certain amount of influence over the community.

The minister is telling us that he wants to allow good faith conversations. I see those conversations as non-interventionist. These are objective discussions where no attempt is being made to influence individuals on what their gender identity should or should not be. I may be wrong, but that is how I see it.

So here is my question for Mr. Schutten: would I not be correct in thinking that, in those good faith discussions, a pastor would necessarily tend toward wanting to influence the individual on what their gender identity or sexual orientation should be? Wouldn't the pastor be biased?

[André Schutten]

Thank you very much for that thoughtful question.

I think there's a great range of diversity within Canada, in particular religious diversity. There are also many people within the LGBTQ community who have particular religious identities and who want to make sure that they live their religious identity faithfully and truly while also dealing with and living out their life as an LGBT individual.

Pastors or spiritual leaders can walk that path. I can speak only for the religious community that I come from; I can't speak for other religious communities. Certainly within my community, our identity first is as children of God and as image-bearers of Jesus Christ. That's our primary identity, our leading identity.

So, if I want to seek help or guidance from a spiritual leader within my tradition, then he's going to lead with that. That's an assumption I have going into the conversation, and that's the assumption he's going to have in the conversation as well. That should be available to me as a Canadian without restriction from the civil government. It should be free to every Canadian to seek out counselling and help, services and practices, that are in line with their religious convictions, and that's not coercive, abusive behaviour.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Schutten.

However, would those discussions....

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I apologize, Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Yes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Just very quickly—and I've stopped your time so this is not impacting it—one of our witnesses, Erika Muse, has her hand raised, so if you would like, you can also ask her for an intervention. It's really up to you.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I don't understand, Madam Chair.

Do I have any time left or not?

You want me to turn to Ms. Muse, is that it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes.

You have two minutes left still, but I'm just letting you know that Erika has her hand raised, so if you would like her to comment, you can ask her too.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I understand, but I first want to finish the discussion with Mr. Schutten because this question is important to me.

Mr. Schutten, do we agree in saying that the pastor you are talking about who would be asked for advice or support would be biased?

From the outset, the pastor will try to influence the individual on what their gender identity or sexual orientation should be.

Am I right in saying this?

[André Schutten]

Yes, he's going to bring the religious convictions of that community to bear, for sure.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

That's exactly what the bill is trying to ban: influencing someone. They don't want a minor to be influenced on their gender identity or their sexual orientation. That is what they are trying to avoid.

Thank you, Mr. Schutten.

Ms. Muse, did you want to add anything?

I yield the floor to you for the remainder of my time. I am listening.

[Erika Muse]

Yes, I wanted to add that, in my opinion, this idea that there cannot be any discussion in talk therapy with therapists exploring issues related to sexuality or gender is completely unfounded. There are international standards about discussing issues of sexuality and gender with psychiatrists and psychologists. These have been signed on to by medical groups and medical associations in Canada, and these services do not prevent in any way Canadians from speaking about issues concerning their own sexuality or other issues. They only prevent the practitioner from carrying out conversion therapy practices in response, which are clearly defined by those same groups and in the bill.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Muse.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Garrison for six minutes, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I just want to start by saying that one of the great privileges of being a member of Parliament is the fact that you get to meet a wide variety of amazing Canadians, so I want to personally thank Erika Muse and Jack Saddleback for the experiences, knowledge and wisdom they've shared with me as a member of Parliament. I really thank them for appearing at committee today.

I want to ask them about what's not in the bill. The bill presumes that there's such a thing as a consenting adult for conversion therapy, and I want to start by asking Erika Muse whether she believes that people can consent to conversion therapy?

[Erika Muse]

Absolutely 100% not. You cannot consent to conversion therapy, because you might be told that it's one thing, but it is ultimately a destructive or hurtful practice, and under Canadian law, you cannot consent to bodily harm in any respect, and that definitely applies. Any consent that someone thinks they're giving to conversion therapy is coerced, because they're being sold a lie if they believe this is going to help them and change their identity, when it is not effective and has been proven to not have any effect.

I went through conversion therapy after the age of majority only because Dr. Zucker was the only one who was allowed by the Ontario health system to prescribe me the gender reforming care I needed. My conversion therapy was coerced for that reason.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You would feel that for most those who have been subjected to conversion therapy, there really isn't any element of free will involved.

[Erika Muse]

I would say that for everyone. You think that you might be able to consent, but you really don't have any idea what you're getting into. Again, that is already included in the concept of the Criminal Code.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Saddleback, I have the same question for you. Do you believe it's possible to freely consent to conversion therapy?

[Jack Saddleback]

I would agree with my colleague here that there is no ability for free consent when it comes to conversion therapy or conversion. In regard to this bill, I think, for us as a society, we have to look much deeper at why the whole aspect of conversion therapy even exists. We must look at the larger patriarchal, cisnormative, heteronormative narrative that is trying to be imposed by a certain thought process.

The aspect that human beings are multi-dimensional and that we are diverse within our nature is what we must uphold here in Canada; thus the bill must be passed. There must be the freedom for people not to worry about going into conversion therapy or being pulled into that whole mentality.

Further...actually, no, I'll leave it there.

Thank you.