Justice Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

During the COVID experience right now, I know that Kevin Laforet and David Cassidy have expressed that with this legislation passed, there could even be some micro jobs created, with maybe 50 or so workers to actually start their process of renovations, preparation, and even some services provided, whatever happens with the provincial rollout.

Is that something your members are prepared to do, continue to deal with the current situation but also find ways to get back to work right away?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Who is that question for, Mr. Masse?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

It's for Mr. Dias.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

We might have lost him there. His screen is frozen.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Okay. I'll go to Mr. Burns.

Mr. Burns, with regard to international competition taking place right now, you've mentioned that Canada really is a laggard with regard to this. Do you think we could leverage other international bodies to help deal with problem gaming, match-fixing and all those different things via Interpol and so forth? Do you think we can actually tap into some of that expertise to help us here as well? That's one thing I think we could actually use to our advantage, but I'll leave it to you to comment.

[Paul Burns]

There are many avenues. There is an international treaty, called the Macolin treaty, that was created with some Canadian input a number of years ago and that Canada has not signed. It was really to deal with fighting-match manipulation. The International Olympic Committee started over a decade ago making this one of their key pillars when they fought cheating at play, match fixing and doping, all within the same integrity of sport envelope. They've worked with international sports bodies. Now all of the major international sports bodies, such as the International Ice Hockey Federation, have training programs and monitoring programs for athletes on match fixing and education.

I sat at a conference that the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport held two Aprils ago. There were 70 sports bodies in that room, representing Canadian athletes, who said, yes, we need to make sure we can have greater protection for athletes and greater education programs. That's something Sport Canada needs to make a priority as we move forward. It works in partnership. There are many people who participate in the process to ensure integrity of sport. It's gaming regulators, sports-book operators, law enforcement, athletic bodies, teams, players—everybody has a role to play. For a number of international organizations this is a priority, and that's where we work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Burns and Mr. Masse.

We'll now go to our second round of questions, starting with Mr. Cooper for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I'm going to direct my first question to Ms. White or Ms. Parker, whoever wishes to answer.

Ms. White, you mentioned accreditation. I was interested in what type of accreditation work the RGC does. Why is it important, and what value does it provide to regulators and operators?

[Tracy Parker, Director, Standards and Accreditation, Responsible Gambling Council]

Thank you for the question. I'll take that one, as director of standards and accreditation at RGC.

I oversee our accreditation program called RG check, which is a defined accreditation program for both land-based and online operators globally. We operate in many Canadian jurisdictions but also in international groups as well.

The key benefits come from providing a defined way to measure the intentions and commitments that operators and regulators have. You hear a lot about commitments to responsible gambling and how important they are.

What an accreditation program like RG check does is to actually measure whether that's happening on the gaming floor and through the player platform. We survey players and employees to find out how the programs are operating and if they're operating as intended.

The program is comprehensive in terms of looking at employee training on responsible gambling and access to money standards. It includes how the games are selected, the information that's provided to players, the self-exclusion programs and the access to support and help that players get if they need it. It is very broad and comprehensive. It looks at standards at the cash at cage and standards of security. It looks at how all of the roles within the casino or with the platform operate, with the intention of responsible gambling.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

Again, I'll proceed to ask this of either Ms. Parker or Ms. White.

The first recommendation of RGC focuses on prioritizing and integrating consumer protection in the strategy with respect to provincial regulators. Could you talk a little bit about what that would look like?

[Tracy Parker]

As Shelley mentioned, and we've discussed, there are a lot of gambling channels that are already open to Canadians that are used by many. Opening the market to sports will create a different line of business with different unique considerations, potentially a new demographic, new information.

Building on the regulators and the provincial efforts around prevention and mitigation that are currently taking place, being able to customize the information for sports bettors.... Whether it's the illusion of control with sports betting that's higher, whether it's [Technical difficulty--Editor] that we'll see with sports betting, the opportunity to induce to gamble through promotions and in-game betting and celebrity sponsorships, there will be a new angle to betting that players will be exposed to with this bill passing that can be managed as an expansion of the current provincial effort.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I'll turn it over to Mr. Burns.

You talked about the fact that gaming in Canada is highly regulated. In the context of single-event sports betting, how can we ensure that each provincial authority has robust regulations and each operator has high-quality, responsible gambling standards in place? I take it that a lot of it is already there, and I think you alluded to that.

[Paul Burns]

It is a highly regulated industry, with a high level of controls and operations. It already comes with that; it's part of the DNA, let's just say, for lack of a better word.

When you look at what provincial regulators will look to—and it's a combination of some of the things that Shelley White has been talking about too—it's putting in those proper, right into the standards.

We have an industry committee working right now with regulators. We connect them to sports-book operators and other regulators in other jurisdictions, so they can learn from the best practices to ensure we have those age and identity verification models, we have a requirement that responsible gambling tools for player education are built into the product. Those are going to come in the regulatory framework.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Burns and Mr. Cooper.

We'll now go to our next questioner, Mr. Virani, for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair; and thank you to all the witnesses for a lot of informative testimony.

I'm going to start with Mr. Dias.

Jerry, it's always good to see you. Thank you for what you are doing with Unifor. There are many Unifor members in my riding of Parkdale-High Park and I've always appreciated the leadership you've shown.

I want to ask you, just at the outset, about something that is percolating in the background, which is the horse racing industry. In the other iteration of this bill, which is a government bill, Bill C-13, there is a carve-out for horse racing. We understand from a lot of horse racing witnesses who are about to come before us that they're keen to see a carve-out, because they want to protect those jobs at those racetracks.

I'm in Toronto, close to Woodbine. Can you tell me about those workplaces and your sense of how we protect those jobs? I'm not sure whether they're unionized by Unifor, or if they're unionized at all, but from your perspective, how do we protect those workers?

[Jerry Dias]

Marc, would you like to answer this question?

[Marc Hollin, National Representative, Unifor]

Sure.

Speaking of Woodbine specifically, there are several unions that represent workers there. It's actually a fairly highly unionized workplace. We represent members there as well.

We haven't yet taken a position on the carve-out specifically for the horse industry, but we certainly would be in favour of a fair treatment across the board for all gaming operators, including those involved in horse racing and the betting there.

From my experience, having worked alongside the leadership there, the jobs at racetracks, similar to what Jerry had said about other gaming jobs, are much more high quality than those in the regular service sector. They have higher wages; they come with health benefits; they come with retirement security in some form or another. They're Cadillac jobs in the service industry. Therefore, anything we can do to protect the jobs that exist, but also grow them and create more jobs, we would be very supportive of—of course, as long as there are the right controls in place in terms of responsible gambling, and so on and so forth.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Okay. That leads me to my next question, to both of you again, Mr. Hollin and Mr. Dias.

What I've also always appreciated is the equity issues that you put at the forefront of Unifor's activities. I've met with Unifor members on various issues that are just about equality in our society.

Given that vantage point and that philosophical orientation, what are you guys doing actively on this responsible gambling front in terms of all the push-back we get from the other side, which is that addictions, and so on, need to be considered?

We've heard testimony about this today from Ms. White and Ms. Parker, but I just wonder about Unifor. Whether it's your employees at the casinos, for example, or otherwise, how are you advocating for that responsible gambling approach?

[Jerry Dias]

First of all, as I am appearing before the panel, our national executive board is meeting right now—virtually, of course. Dana Dunphy, who is on our national executive board, one of 25 rank-and-filers, is the chairperson at Casino Windsor.

We've spent a lot of time with the various gaming owners, talking about equity issues, hiring practices and diversity, so you will find that our workplaces, by and large, reflect the communities in which we live. We are not only speaking to the employers about this within the gaming sector, but I can argue, predominantly in many sectors right across our union. We see these as well-paying, middle-class jobs and we have a heck of a discussion of what our workplaces should look like.

Does that answer your question?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Yes. Thank you for that, Mr. Dias.

Maybe I'll just finish with Mr. Burns.

You mentioned those sole instances of match fixing in Canada being the English bookmakers meddling with a lower-level Canadian soccer league. I'm actually concerned about the lower-paid athletes.

I'm juxtaposing Auston Matthews, with a $10-million contract, with somebody in the East Coast Hockey League with a $30,000 contract. What do we need to do to ensure that lower-paid athletes who are still professionals but might also have secondary jobs are protected from match-fixing influences?

[Paul Burns]

Well, what you have, first off, is which sports will be bet on. That's where sports books operate. In many cases, it's not everything. They need to understand that the certainty of data and player performance all goes into what sports are bet on.

The big thing is, for any athlete, it's about education. It's amateur athletes. It's lower pay. It's all of those.

Professional tennis, because of its pay structure, has had many issues related to that. If you're outside the top 50 in the world, you don't really make any money in the tennis world.

There are those issues that need to be discussed, and bringing them into the open in those education programs is necessary. That's what is occurring around the world, and those discussions need to continue. They need to be brought into Canadian sport in a more direct and robust fashion.

For all of the sports bodies across the nation and the international bodies they work with, this topic is very much part of their programming and the work they do. It just becomes part of the dialogue that needs to happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Burns, and thank you, Mr. Virani.

We'll now go to Mr. Fortin for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Dias, I understand that union members are permanently exposed, in the gambling industry, to pathological gamblers and to the various issues pathological gambling entails.

Can you tell me what your observations are in terms of this? First, do a number of your members have gambling issues? If so, how are you engaging in the fight against those problems?

[Jerry Dias]

Thank you. That is a very good question.

Obviously our members are trained in how to deal with aggressive gamblers. Our members have internal workplace protocols. If a patron is identified as being aggressive to anyone, it's dealt with immediately. Our members are surrounded with this on a regular basis but are incredibly well trained to deal with individuals.

As I said, then, we have workplace mechanisms and strategies in place to deal with this.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Do you think a number of your members are compulsive gamblers themselves?