Justice Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Lisa Foss]

No. If I may, single-event sports betting is betting on the outcome of a single event. That includes both fixed odds and parimutuel regimes.

Right now in Canada, we only have parimutuel. In other places in the world, such as Australia, they have both. On horse racing, they have parimutuel betting and also fixed-odds betting. Under fixed odds in horse racing, which is not legal in Canada, it's when the bettor puts down their money and there are odds established. They're betting on the outcome of that race and they know what their payout is going to be because it's locked in. If it's two-to-one, then you get two to one if your horse wins.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Then it's fixed-odds versus variable floating odds. Really, that's what it is.

[Lisa Foss]

Yes, and the odds are your payout. It's not the odds of the horse winning.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Yes.

[Lisa Foss]

Does that help?

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

From my limited understanding, I got that part.

My last point is something that Ms. Findlay mentioned briefly. The objective here, in part, is to allow single-event sports betting because it takes the bad guys out of the industry, but I assume that unless we have an unlimited betting amount, it's not going to completely eliminate them. They'll still take the single big bets.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

We'll go to you very briefly for an answer.

[Michael Ellison]

I suppose I can answer that question.

Under either of the bills that are before the House, Bill C-218 or Bill C-13, we don't have a way to say that all illegal betting would be brought into a legal market.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

All right. Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks very much.

We'll now go to Monsieur Fortin for two and a half minutes. Go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay. I have two and a half minutes.

It will go by quickly.

As my colleague said concerning sports betting, the more I hear about it, the more I realize that I don't understand a thing, but that's another story.

Mr. Ellison, in your opinion, if Bill C-218 was passed as is, would the Criminal Code or the Canadian legislation make it possible to properly control problems that are potentially related to the fixing of single-event sports?

If not, what could we do to improve the legislation?

[Michael Ellison]

Currently, the Criminal Code has two offences that are charged in these circumstances for match-fixing that is identified. Those offences typically are cheating at play, which is a potential one, but more commonly, fraud, which is under subsection 380(1) of the Criminal Code.

Those offences have been successfully prosecuted, including recently a case that went to the Supreme Court, in 2015: the Queen v. Riesberry. Therefore, we have offences in the Criminal Code that can combat this activity. Of course, there are other issues that have to do with detection.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Is that enough?

Could we improve that?

[Michael Ellison]

At this time, my comment would be that the Supreme Court has ruled that these offences are applicable, but I would say that the committee could look to other jurisdictions and also measures at the UN and other international organizations where there are calls for specific offences.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Are you sure that, if Bill C-218 was passed, we could avoid the fixing of single-event sports in Canada?

[Michael Ellison]

I think it would be fair to say that match-fixing already occurs and it would still occur after, and that provinces and territories and the prosecution services and investigation services would have to focus on learning more about match-fixing and preventing it. As with all crime, it would be impossible to completely eliminate it.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

So that's what should be improved if we want to prevent the fixing of single-event sports. We should improve the Criminal Code.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

You have five seconds.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, I apologize once again, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

—it is difficult for the witness to answer in a reasonable amount of time when interpretation is being provided. The interpreters are doing a good job, but I think we must give the witnesses some time to answer. It's not easy, and you know that as well as I do. When my anglophone colleagues engage with francophone witnesses, they have the same problem. Unfortunately, most witnesses are anglophones.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that intervention, Monsieur Fortin. We'll definitely take it under advisement.

We'll go now to Mr. Masse for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Going back to Mr. Ellison very quickly, generally speaking, when we move things from the black market to a regulated market, there is a reduction in crime and criminal activity.

Is that not a fair statement with regard to when we've moved to regulatory practices in these matters?

[Michael Ellison]

I would say that we have seen it in recent examples with the Criminal Code. There are certainly arguments to be made, and data is still being generated in those examples. I think it's generally a fair statement to say that people are going to be attracted to a system that is regulated by the provincial and territorial governments.

Most importantly, I think, on this point, with the provinces and territories, it's not just about regulation and setting standards; it's also about integrating police forces as well, and monitoring betting activity. That can be done within a regulated atmosphere, and that will have a good impact.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

It will also divert resources—if we want to—to taxation models to support those objectives. As well, it will take money sources away from those organized elements that currently receive those funds.