Justice Committee on March 9th, 2021

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

More generally, are you noticing any negative impact on your industry as a result of the current ban on single-event sports betting?

[Murielle Thomassin]

No. I think that the parimutuel model that we provide has been established for a very long time.

Sports betting could also be done at our place. However, as things stand now, in 2021, all we're asking is that our territory not be encroached upon.

We could potentially reach an agreement with the sports betting industry and establish joint initiatives. This could even be very positive for the industry.

Also, if we generate more revenue, since we are a non-profit organization, the industry would ultimately receive more revenue. This partnership is almost necessary.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Okay.

As you know, Bill C-218 would make single-event sports betting in horse racing legal. How would this affect your industry and, again, the health or treatment of horses?

[Murielle Thomassin]

In Quebec, this industry is much smaller and more of a family affair. Mr. Lewis was saying earlier that his wife and child ride horses. For us, it's a similar situation. For people in Quebec, it's an industry, but it's above all a lifestyle and a passion. So I don't believe that there's a health risk for horses.

Sorry, but I forgot your first question.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

In general, how would the legalization of single-event betting affect the horse-racing industry?

[Murielle Thomassin]

If you adopt the current proposal to remove the part of the definition of “lottery” in the Criminal Code that prohibits single-event betting, it will kill us. We won't be able to compete because people will be allowed to bet on our races. If the opposite is true and you decide to keep limiting horse racing to parimutuel wagering, it's still a form of single-event sports betting.

So it's really the wording that matters to us, because it can ruin us.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

In your opinion, who would benefit from the legalization of single-event sports betting?

[Murielle Thomassin]

In Quebec, I believe that Loto-Québec and the major companies will benefit from the legalization. If we were able to come together to find a way to provide our service, that would be ideal, because it's inevitable. At this point, it's just a matter of knowing who will provide it and why.

Canada and Quebec can certainly benefit from the legalization, especially if the inequalities can be reduced at the same time. It would be good to collect the funds and then redistribute them to help sick children or homeless women, for example. Many organizations could benefit from these funds.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Perfect. Thank you.

Lastly, I want to point out that Sherbrooke is the birthplace of Aimé Choquette, a great man in the world of horse racing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Monsieur Fortin for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for you, Ms. Thomassin. However, I want to start by greeting you on behalf of your member of Parliament, Ms. Charbonneau, who would have liked to be here.

Ms. Thomassin, I gather from your presentation that you're concerned about the financial impact of potentially legalizing single-event sports betting. You aren't the only person to make this point. I'm not an expert in the field. However, I gather that single-event sports betting is already taking place, but the black market is benefiting from it. This is done through criminal organizations. It has always been that way and it probably will be that way as long as single-event sports betting is prohibited.

Bill C-218 proposes to legalize single-event sports betting. This would mean, for example, that Loto-Québec could manage bets on events that take place at your place, at the Trois-Rivières Racetrack. You're concerned that this would cost you revenue. However, you're already losing revenue to the black market.

Have you estimated the market share that goes to criminal organizations for single-event sports betting?

[Murielle Thomassin]

Unfortunately, I don't have any statistics or data regarding the betting that takes place under the table. It's a little harder to pin down.

However, I want to make one thing very clear. I'm not against single-event sports betting. All I'm saying is that we don't want it to encroach on fixed-odds betting. These odds would be set by Loto-Québec, for example, which would manage single-event betting on our races in this manner. We provide parimutuel betting.

If the wording doesn't limit horse racing to parimutuel betting, it could result in only single-event betting on each horse race. That's really the source of our concern. That said, we know that single-event sports betting is coming, and we don't have any issue with that.

I don't have data on the black market. We know that there's illegal betting on our races. However, if single-event betting were legal, there may be even more of it. Some people have the sense to say that they don't make illegal bets. In any case, they may be less comfortable with it. If this practice is legalized and if Loto-Québec starts saying that you can bet on a single horse race, it could be devastating for us.

Yes, this practice is taking place and we all want to stop it. However, at the same time, if it becomes legal and we aren't protected, things could be difficult.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

In your opinion, if Bill C-218 were passed and the practice were legalized, couldn't the racetracks come to an agreement with Loto-Québec on revenue sharing? Ms. Leslie spoke earlier about the cost of maintaining horses, among other things. Couldn't some type of revenue sharing be arranged with Loto-Québec? Has this option been explored or discussed?

[Murielle Thomassin]

Good question. We're connected through an inside door to the Salon de jeux de Trois Rivières, so to Loto-Québec, in a way.

We try to get along with Loto-Québec. In the years leading up to the pandemic, Loto-Québec even sponsored us. We get along very well with these people. I think that a market share could be developed in betting theatres and gaming parlours. We provide the same thing. It's just that we could provide it together. Our betting theatres could offer sports betting. Historical horse racing could also be included.

Perhaps we would like to see the Criminal Code amended. We want to point out that everything is regulated by the Canadian Pari-Mutuel Agency. However, machines could be set up at Loto-Québec locations to raise some money and share the revenue. It's the same customers. Let's face it. We don't want to attract customers and monopolize them. Instead, we want to share the revenue in a fair manner.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Let's talk about customers.

Ms. Thomassin, in the gambling and lottery industry, problem gaming is an issue. It affects all types of lotteries. The horse-racing industry isn't exempt.

I want you to talk about what you and the Trois-Rivières Racetrack are doing to combat problem gaming.

[Murielle Thomassin]

At the racetrack, we don't have many tools other than the tools on our website. However, we're working with the Woodbine Entertainment Group. They have a well-established platform for legal online betting on horse racing. They also have a good handle on this issue. They look at the accounts. They call me occasionally to say that they had to suspend the account of one of our customers. This rarely happens. More management is done on the web. At the racetrack, the betting amounts aren't high. The amounts are often $2.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Thomassin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Masse for six minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to ask some questions of the B.C. Lottery Corporation.

One strength of Mr. Waugh's bill, and also one strength of the government bill, the previous Bill C-13, was that it didn't force the provinces to do any particular thing. It just gave them the capability to roll out products that some of their consumers would potentially like. As well, it also gave the power to take back some products if they found some issues related to them.

Could you speak a little to that, and also to some examples about what you do for gaming? Obviously we want to keep our focus on problem gaming as it rolls out. What do you do now? How is the flexibility that's being proposed here an advantage for a province?

Each province is a little different in terms of where they're at with this. That's one thing that I think is really underplayed. It's very much an important value that we don't make anybody have to do anything, and then each province can roll out how it goes about the next stage.

[Stewart Groumoutis]

First and foremost, around the products and what we would offer, I think you are correct that there are different levels of maturity in the different provinces, both online and through retail and casino facilities.

BCLC has quite a robust offering and quite a robust ability to deliver products. From an online standpoint, we would look to compete directly with the black market immediately. For the land-based, we see that, again, as a major opportunity, because we've heard for years that customers are looking for this. They want us to deliver this on their behalf.

In regard to the player health capabilities, I'll pass it to my colleague Jamie Wiebe to speak a bit about that. We are very well developed there.

[Dr. Jamie Wiebe, Director, Player Health, British Columbia Lottery Corporation]

Good afternoon and thank you for your question.

At BCLC, we call it player health. We distinguish that from responsible gambling. We put a lot of effort into making sure that players get the information and support at the right time and for the right people, acknowledging that not all players are the same. There's a continuum of risk from none to low to high. We have services and initiatives associated with where people are.

To start out, we want everyone to have basic gambling literacy. It's like the manual when you buy a car. How does this thing operate? Know the risks. What are the odds of winning? Know that there are resources available.

It's easy to get caught up in gambling. Some people find themselves getting a little bit more involved. That's when we get into nudges—tools online and for our slots. There are services with the GameSense advisers to help people increase their self-awareness and stay within time and money limits that are appropriate for them.

At the far end of the continuum, unfortunately, we have some people for whom it's not about information anymore. It's about taking a break. That's when we have the voluntary self-exclusion. They can take short breaks. We work very closely with the provincial government to link our customers to the wide range of services, including free counselling and helpline services.

It's like a holistic public health approach to our players.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Is there a willingness among provinces to share best practices for this? In Ontario, where I'm from, I'd think there would be an interest to do that among the provinces. I think it gives us a capability to actually be more robust than other countries, because we'll have different regions that can speak to different types of situations.

[Dr. Jamie Wiebe]

That is such an excellent question.

I'm the chair of the Canadian Responsible Gambling Association. We have representatives of player health and responsible gambling from all the jurisdictions. We just commissioned a global review of sports betting. We want to know what the world knows. What are people doing about reducing risk, promoting support and promoting those healthy behaviours? Together, as a national group, we're going to use the results of the study to look at practices in our own jurisdictions.

Canada truly is a leader in taking care of our players and putting the well-being of players first. It's part of the player experience.

Thank you for that question.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, I've had a chance to be on some international panels related to this. There have been nothing but good remarks about our lottery corporations from other jurisdictions around the world. It's nice to get that compliment coming when you're carrying the flag and other professionals note that.

I only have one minute. I'm going to conclude by thanking the witnesses.

I'll also note that the provinces get a chance to roll this out depending upon where they're at and where they think the market is. On top of that, they have control over that to bring it back if there is an issue or a problem. It could be very much a modest step to start or it could be more robust like in British Columbia, Ontario or Quebec. Again, it's about the provinces having control versus Ottawa telling them what can or can't be done.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Masse.

As I indicated earlier, we would need 10 minutes, as Mr. Fortin requested at our last meeting, to discuss his motions and some housekeeping items, so at this time I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for your very compelling testimonies today, for being here and for answering our questions. If there are further clarifications that you'd like to provide, please send them to our clerk in writing. We'd be happy to receive them.

Thank you again. You are now welcome to log off the meeting if you so desire.

Very quickly to members, we'll get to a couple of housekeeping items before we go to Monsieur Fortin's three motions.

First, you've all been emailed our budget for the study of Bill C-218 in the amount of $2,650. Can I have the consent of the committee to pass this budget? A thumbs-up would be great.