Justice Committee on March 9th, 2021

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Lawson, you're absolutely correct. This is an important issue.

I saw it first-hand in my riding, Windsor, which lost its raceway because of a political decision by the McGuinty government to close it. It had a casino as part of it. It had $2 million in profit. We had hundreds of jobs there that were directly providing services, and then there was the whole industry around it that was flourishing—the farms, the breeding, the notoriety, the connection to other communities and a cultural thing as well.

I think we're worse off. In fact, the Joy family ran that raceway for years and years, and now it's an empty parking lot. It's maybe slated for big box retail, but there's a development fight going on as well. We had an iconic industry, which was there not only for the horse racing but for all kinds of other things. That is now gone.

If we don't address your situation, what do you think is going to be the future? Again, the agriculture department said that they can't sustain the current situation. Do you think, though, with the proper support to get the provinces on side, we could get a solution here?

A lot of this is provincial. It's going to be regulatory. How do we ensure that you're going to get that?

[Jim Lawson]

I'm not familiar exactly with the discussions with agriculture. I think the CPMA does a great job of regulating the industry. In terms of the support, we work extremely closely with the AGCO on a regulatory basis.

In terms of protecting this industry, if our proposal to merge these two bills relative to horse racing occurs, I think there's an opportunity for working with the provincial regulators in each jurisdiction to support racing.

We contribute a lot out of our wagering dollars today to funding both the AGCO, on the horse-racing side, and the CPMA, and that will continue. As we have the potential to increase our wagering and increase our relationship, there's an opportunity to strengthen the regulators, and I think we'll be able to do that. I have high confidence that our contributions, at least in Ontario to the AGCO through wagering, will be able to sustain it. To go in the other direction—you're right—it risks destroying not only Windsor but all of the racetracks in Ontario. That's why we're here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawson.

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

With that, I'd like to thank our witnesses for their testimony today.

We will now be moving on to our second panel. Before we do that, I'll just remind members that, as per our last meeting, we will need about 10 minutes at the end of our second panel to discuss some housekeeping, as well as some motions presented by Monsieur Fortin. Please do make arrangements.

The meeting is now suspended as we let in our next set of witnesses.

Welcome back, everyone. We'll resume the meeting. I'll just make a few quick comments for the benefit of the new witnesses who are here.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate [Technical difficulty—Editor] that you are on mute.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Interpretation is available at the bottom of your screen. Please select the language you would like to listen to. It doesn't matter what language you are speaking in as long as it's one of our official languages. When you are speaking, please speak slowly and clearly so that the interpreters don't have a more difficult time.

With that, I'd like to welcome our witnesses. We have with us three organizations.

British Columbia Lottery Corporation is represented by Mr. Stewart Groumoutis, who will be joining us very shortly. He is the director of e-gaming. We have Dr. Jamie Wiebe, who is the director of player health.

We also have with us Club Jockey du Québec, represented by Murielle Thomassin, who is the racetrack manager at the Trois-Rivières Racetrack.

Finally, we have Horsemen's Benevolent And Protective Association Of Ontario, represented by Sue Leslie, who is the president; and Ian Howard, who is a member.

For the witnesses, I have a one-minute card and a 30-second card. I'll be alerting you as to where you stand within the five minutes that you'll be allotted per organization to make your opening remarks.

We'll start with the Club Jockey du Québec.

Ms. Thomassin, please go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Murielle Thomassin, Racetrack Manager, Trois-Rivières Racetrack, Club Jockey du Québec]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hello, everyone. I am happy to be here today.

I am just going to speak to you a little bit about the situation that you are already well aware of.

I will speak in English. My English is not perfect, but I believe it is good enough. It is easier, I believe, for most of you who are English speaking.

Canada's horse-racing—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Excuse me, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes, Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

If I may, I just want to tell the witness that there are francophones on all the committees—I'm one of them—and that she's allowed to speak in the official language of her choice. She should understand that the interpreters will translate her remarks. I understand that it's easier for her to speak in French than in English. I think that it would be wise to let her speak in French.

Thank you.

[Murielle Thomassin]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

I'll continue in English, if you don't mind.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Thomassin, please.

[Murielle Thomassin]

I don't want to switch back and forth. I'm really sorry about that, but I sort of prepared myself in English, so here I go. I will be fairly brief.

Canada's horse-racing industry generates approximately 50,000 full-time jobs across Canada. We have established that today. It contributes about $5.6 billion annually to the national economy. From breeders to trainers to veterinarians and blacksmiths, the racing industry's impact is significant when it comes to jobs and economically speaking, but it is all possible because of parimutuel wagering. This is even more the case in Quebec as it is our only source of revenue.

Club Jockey du Québec was created as a not-for-profit organization in 2009 with a mission to sustain and grow the horse industry. Since its creation, the wagering from Quebec players on horse races around the world is stable at about $70 million a year, just in Quebec. From that, Club Jockey du Québec returns approximately 73% to the players with winning tickets using the parimutuel model. The rest is kept to pay taxes, federal and provincial, racetrack host fees and partners such as legal web platforms used by clients or betting parlours across Quebec. At the end of it all, we are able to present races at our local racetrack in Trois-Rivières and redistribute $3 million of net profit to the industry.

I have a whole two pages to tell you about what parimutuel versus fixed-odds wagering is; however, I believe by now you understand the issue.

Basically I want to talk to you from my heart today, because the race industry in Quebec has suffered plenty in the past couple of years. In 2008 they called for the end of racetracks in Quebec, and as I just mentioned, in 2009 a few horsemen got together and realized they could not let that happen, so they created the Club Jockey du Québec. We now have races, about 40 cards a year, and we are pretty small. We are one the smallest, I believe, in the amount we are able to give back to the industry, the $3 million, and in the number of race dates we have.

All that is to say that the proposed change to the Criminal Code will impact us no matter what. However, we want to protect the racehorse industry by suggesting that the wording the Criminal Code has should protect the horse industry and not allow single sports wagering events like fixed odds to be taken on horse races.

We want to keep our product. We want to promote our product and get bigger in the end, but we want to make sure you understand that this is the passionate province. We are here to stay and we will basically just enforce single sports wagering while protecting our industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Ms. Thomassin.

We'll go now to the British Columbia Lottery Corporation and Mr. Stewart Groumoutis.

I believe you are now here. Please go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Stewart Groumoutis, Director, eGaming, British Columbia Lottery Corporation]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Thank you for inviting the British Columbia Lottery Corporation to provide our perspective on Bill C-218, the safe and regulated sports betting act.

My name is Stewart Groumoutis and I'm BCLC's director of e-gaming operations. My colleague in virtual attendance is Dr. Jamie Wiebe, director of player health at BCLC.

We are pleased to speak to the committee today as you consider this bill to modernize the law in Canada so that sports bettors can finally legally access single-event betting in their own country, as well as the benefits and safeguards that come with that option.

To provide some background on BCLC, we conduct and manage commercial gambling in a socially responsible manner on behalf of the Province of British Columbia. This includes 16 casinos, 17 community gaming centres, 3,500 lottery retail and hospitality locations and PlayNow.com, B.C.'s only regulated gambling website, which currently captures approximately two-thirds of B.C.'s total online gambling market.

Since 1985, approximately $25 billion from BCLC's revenues has gone back to the Province of B.C. to support important investments like health care, education and community programs.

Like previous speakers, we believe single-event sports betting is long overdue. We believe we can offer this product while supporting the health and safety of our players and mitigating gambling-related harms.

We know that B.C. players already make these bets, either south of the border in State of Washington casinos or on unregulated offshore websites, neither of which provide revenue or jobs that support British Columbia. In fact, we estimate that more than $1 billion is wagered on sports annually in our province. The majority of the benefit of that wagering leaves B.C. as a result of the current laws.

We're asking for a level playing field. We're asking for the opportunity to offer single-event sports bets in a way that benefits our province and our players—through regulated player health, integrity and security safeguards.

In the short term, BCLC plans to first implement single-event betting on PlayNow.com and quickly create a new suite of sports betting opportunities for our customers. In the long term, at land-based casinos and community gaming centres, we're ready to work with our industry, regulator and government partners to introduce licensed sports books in key markets.

We'd also consider enhanced sports betting offerings at hospitality locations, providing a much needed economic boost to bars and pubs across B.C.

While this is a significant opportunity for our players and our province, we acknowledge that legalized single-event sports betting creates a responsibility to enhance the robust player health safeguards we already have in place.

We can tell you that providing the best player experience possible—while supporting the health and well-being of our players by reducing gambling-related harms—is at the forefront of how we work. In fact, our goal is that no one is harmed from gambling offered by BCLC. We're working towards this not only by encouraging healthy play but by making our products, environments and services safer for our players.

One way we do this is through player research to gain a deeper understanding of risks, current interventions and safeguards, as well as evidence of their effectiveness. Another way we do this is through our GameSense advisers. They are dedicated player health specialists available to support players with informed decision-making and healthy play—or to refer them to treatment and support when needed.

During the COVID-19 pandemic, and with B.C.'s casinos currently closed, we have enhanced these supports and have GameSense advisers available via telephone and online chat on PlayNow.com. In fact, PlayNow.com is the only online gambling website in North America, and it is one of the few in the world with dedicated player health specialists ready to support their customers.

You'll also recall from a previous speaker, Mr. Zane Hansen from SIGA, that our GameSense program is widely used by our provincial counterparts in Saskatchewan. It's also licensed in Alberta, Manitoba and several jurisdictions in the United States, including all MGM resort facilities.

For our commitment to continuous improvement and our evidence-based approach to player health, BCLC has received the highest level of certification—for the fourth time in a row—from the World Lottery Association. This certification is for excellence in responsible gambling programming.

If Bill C-218 is passed, BCLC and our Canadian regulated counterparts are well-positioned to offer single-event sports bets to players in a safe and responsible way.

As someone who has been with BCLC for more than 10 years, I know first-hand about the investments we have made in player health, the terrific player experience we offer and how much better it could be with single-event sports betting.

This is something our country is ready for. That's why we're urging you and your colleagues to work collaboratively to bring single-event sports betting to Canadian players and provinces.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to the Horsemen's Benevolent and Protective Association of Ontario.

Ms. Leslie and Mr. Howard, you have five minutes. Go ahead.

[Sue Leslie, President, Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association of Ontario]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I've been in the horse-racing industry and community for more than 40 years, and I currently have the privilege of being the chair and president of the Horsemen's Benevolent and Protective Association. I've also held various other positions across the industry.

In 2012, I also had the privilege of being chair of the Ontario Horse Racing Industry Association when the industry faced a financial crisis due to the Government of Ontario's decision to end the slots at racetracks program, which at the time was the funding model used by government to support the horse-racing industry.

This one decision nearly killed the horse-racing industry. The industry seemed to be collapsing right before my eyes, and I won't go into the very sad details, including the welfare of the horses and the sheer worry of the thousands of families. Fortunately, we were able to show the government the devastation caused by this decision, and an alternative financial solution was provided.

I reference this time in our history only because while we support Bill C-218 and the legalization of sports betting, it reminds me of that devastation we faced and the potential devastation we could face again, with both horse racing and breeding, if the federal government does not include language to protect the industry, much as Bill C-13 did.

To further explain my significant concern regarding the unintended consequences the industry could face, it's important to understand that the costs associated with horse racing are substantial. This is true both for racetrack operators and for owners and breeders.

If it were permitted for an organization other than a racetrack operator to take legal, fixed-odds bets on horse racing without paying any of these substantial costs, then the business model the entire industry sits on would be completely broken.

Due to the investments made by horse owners and racetrack operators and support from the government, the horse-racing and breeding industry supports more than 50,000 jobs across the country. Many of these jobs are blue collar in rural Ontario. Most of these workers have spent their entire lives working on farms with horses and would have a difficult time finding another career should the industry be drastically reduced.

Our farmers, owners, trainers, breeders and caretakers are only a small part of the jobs and economic activity we create. We also employ veterinarians, blacksmiths, jockeys, contractors, trainers and physiotherapists. In addition, we build barns, arenas, fences and running sheds. We plough fields, we plant crops, and we buy tractors, vans and pickup trucks. We produce $5.7 billion annually in economic activity. I would say this is an industry more than worthy of protecting. I want to reiterate the $5.7 billion in economic activity and 50,000 jobs.

I've spent a fair amount of time speaking about the people and the families whose livelihoods depend on this industry. We must also consider the horses. The product is a living, breathing equine requiring 24-7 care, which is very labour intensive. If our people can't earn their living through horse racing, they will lose the income needed to take care of their livestock.

As an industry, we must do all we can to convince you that the language that protects the parimutuel bet must be reinserted into Bill C-218. If this wording is not reinstated in the bill, the horse-racing industry along with the 50,000 jobs it supports will be destroyed.

The horse-racing industry has a long and successful history of working with government and its agencies. We've established a good working relationship with the AGCO and the CPMA, which licenses racetracks and oversees the parimutuel betting. We are committed to continuing to work with both levels of government to maximize the return to government while doing the same for horse racing.

Horse racing has a proud worldwide history. Canada has produced some of the greatest race horses that have ever lived, including the great Northern Dancer.

I believe our government has a responsibility and a duty to the industry and the 50,000 Canadians who make their living in rural communities to include language in the bill to ensure a vibrant horse-racing industry alongside a brand new sports-betting industry that could become equally productive in generating jobs and economic activity.

Respectfully, this is the right thing to do.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Ms. Leslie.

We'll now go into our first round of questions, for six minutes each, starting with Mr. Lewis.

Go ahead, sir, you have six minutes.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

It was unfortunate that I didn't get to speak in the first round, because I would have loved to speak to Chris D. Lewis. I'm Chris B. Lewis. Actually, when I was vetted, Madam Chair, just for the record, they asked me if I was a commissioner. There's an OPP boat in my riding named after him, so everybody thought after I was elected that it was named after me. It wasn't, just for the record. Now it's on the record, and the slate is clear.

Madam Chair, you know me to be a very upbeat person, I believe. Today, I'm not so upbeat because just this past week we lost 200 more jobs. One factory and 200 more jobs were lost in Windsor-Essex. I always bring my hat back to say, “Okay, what are we going to do? How can we all work together and figure out a way around this to push it forward?”

First and foremost, to all the witnesses, thank you so very much. I want you to know that when I speak to you about this I'm speaking both because I'm an owner of two horses—although for barrel racing so nothing to do with the betting—and because my daughter and my wife spend so much time on their horses. My daughter wants to be a veterinarian. So much of what you've been speaking of hits home beyond belief. They're actually right behind me, but I won't show them there.

I really want the witnesses to understand that I know exactly what you're talking about with regard to how much it costs and those types of things.

For once, Madam Chair, I'm going to greedy. I'm going to say that because we are losing so many jobs to the United States and to Mexico, and I'm just seeing hemorrhaging and bleeding beyond belief locally, that this conversation should be much larger than the horse-racing industry. It really has to be focused on how we ensure a secure path forward for all Canadians, be it the horse-racing industry or the single sports betting industry. I know, Madam Chair, that's what we're talking about today, but in my mind this is so much larger than that right now because, darn it, people deserve the very best.

I have a couple of questions. I'm sorry, but I'm very passionate today, as you can probably tell.

To Madam Thomassin, you mentioned $5.6 billion to the industry and $3 million back to the government. If this were to go forward—and I really hope it does, by the way—do you have any idea how much more revenue to the government this would produce and/or how much more help it would be for the horse-racing industry?

[Murielle Thomassin]

Actually, I would like to clarify something. When I mentioned the $5.6 billion and the 50,000 jobs, that's not in Quebec. My first sentence was about Canada-wide; however, Quebec is much smaller.

We have about $70 million in wagers every year. Of the $70 million, 73% is given back to the gamblers or the clients. They get that money back from winning tickets. After that we pay 0.8% in federal taxes and 2.5% in provincial taxes, and then after that we have a bunch of commissions to give out to either tracks that are hosts, host tracks we call them....

Let's say we present a race, if the track is Woodbine, if the track is in the United States, we give back a percentage to that track. It's basically their fee. They make money off of it. It all trickles down to about 7% or 8% that we keep in our pockets, which is a bit more than $3 million. Then we have the racetrack fees and my staff. I pay all kinds of expenses, and then after that the net profit in our pockets is about $3 million a year.

We give $2.5 million at the racetrack for 40 cards, and we give back about a half a million for fair races that are going across Quebec. It all trickles down. It seems super large, but then at the end see how.... A purse can be $3,000, and the winner gets 50%, so the winner only goes back home with $1,500 that week.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Perfect. Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, I know that I have only one minute left.

Mr. Groumoutis, I don't know where you're at in B.C. I don't know whether you're in “lower-land” B.C., if that makes any sense. I do know that border issues have become quite an issue, but I'm really excited about this. I believe it will promote tourism. I truly believe there will be a lot of economic spinoff to this.

Do you have any idea what that impact might look like in B.C.?

[Stewart Groumoutis]

Yes. We estimate that an opportunity for between $125 million and $175 million in revenue is possible. To your point, we do believe that we can implement some destination sports-betting facilities that, as you mentioned, would potentially have travellers coming from elsewhere in Canada or coming up from down south to participate in that. We know that we already have some destination casinos. Adding sports betting is just another element to drive that tourism.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis.

We'll now go Mrs. Brière for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses today.

My question is for Ms. Thomassin.

First, on the day after International Women's Rights Day, I'd like to point out that you're one of the few women racetrack managers in Canada. I would also like to congratulate you on your work to further regulate the use of horse whips.

[Murielle Thomassin]

Thank you.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

In 2014, the Senate blocked Bill C-290, which was very similar to Bill C-218. The senators felt that there was too much potential for match fixing or for organized crime to infiltrate the world of legal betting by rigging sporting events, including horse racing. One concern was that horses would pay the price for this potential rigging with their health.

How would you respond to these allegations today?

[Murielle Thomassin]

Whether we like it or not, society is changing and so are we. We must always be careful when it comes to money. People will try to manipulate things and make a little more money. However, I foresee a much less bleak future.

We're regulated by the Canadian Pari-Mutuel Agency, or CPMA, which conducts drug testing. As well, the Quebec alcohol, racing and gaming control commission is working with me on regulating the use of horse whips and drugs. This world is much more structured than you might think. I even received a memo recently stating that a test would be more restrictive to limit the unethical use of drugs on horses.

I worked a bit with an employee from the Quebec department of agriculture, fisheries and food, or MAPAQ. The employee couldn't believe how well we were set up at the racetrack in terms of animal health and safety. We need to work with a vision for the future of the new company in order to attract and retain customers. We must be upright and honest. Above all, we must respect the animal that we ultimately use as a tool.