Justice Committee on March 11th, 2021

[Nathalie Drouin]

Last year the main estimates really show, as the member said, a decrease, but that was compensated by a supplementary estimate.

To give you a very concrete example, the family units that are there to support victims and their families in missing and murdered indigenous women cases were announced after the main estimates. At the end of the day, the victims fund spent around $23 million, rather than $14 million.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much.

I know I have well under a minute remaining for time, so I have a very quick question.

In October 2020, a new version of the new e-filing portal launched, although I understand there were significant technical issues.

Can you address the costs associated with this new e-filing portal? When is it now planned to launch again?

[Nathalie Drouin]

Madam Chair, I guess the question is related to the CAS organization.

I will provide an answer, but I may have to go and work with my colleague to make sure I provide the appropriate answer.

I think the supplementary estimates offered a $5-million top-up to the CAS budget to support their operating in a COVID environment. That budget was not only for IT but also for plexiglass and other distancing measures that they had to put in place, but of course, the measures they took regarding IT will stay post-pandemic and will support the efficiency of the CAS system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis.

We'll now go to Mr. Maloney for six minutes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I was obviously thinking exactly the same thoughts as Mr. Lewis, because some of the questions he posed were the exact ones I was going to pose. I am going to follow up on his questions on legal aid funding.

If you go back to 2016, the increases in legal aid funding from the federal perspective arose in large measure, from what I have seen, because some of our provincial counterparts had cut funding to legal aid. I can only speak to Ontario because that's where I'm from. I know the current provincial government in Ontario cut legal aid funding in its budget in...probably 2017. Then there was an ask to us to try to compensate for that shortfall. A lot of that was in the context of immigration law, because of a large number of immigrants coming to Ontario—Toronto specifically—where the need for legal aid funding was even greater. The issue also involved refugees coming to Canada.

This funding was meant to be temporary. We did it for more than one year. In your discussions with the province, does this come up in a way that would suggest to you that the provinces might have a change of heart and increase funding for legal aid back to the levels they previously did, or even higher than that?

[Nathalie Drouin]

I have a couple of thoughts, Madam Chair.

Regarding Ontario, yes, it's true they have announced a reduction, but they have also revisited ways to deliver legal aid. That exercise brought more efficiencies in their system, so the impacts were important, but not as important as we forecast at the beginning.

The very high increase that was announced in the 2016 budget was not linked to the decision of Ontario, as this decision was made prior to the decision of Ontario.

As the member said, on top of the announcement of 2016, when we announced a new investment of $142.4 million, we have also had some annual increases to immigration legal aid, and of course, Ontario is one of the provinces that is the most hit by immigration.

You also see in the supplementary estimates that we got a budget of $26 million, but so far we have spent only $20 million for immigration legal aid as, of course, because of the pandemic, the needs are a little under what we forecast at the beginning of this year.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Is the decrease tied to that? Obviously immigration patterns have changed dramatically over the last 12 months. That's going to be the case in the short-term, foreseeable future anyway. Is that going to be readjusted once we get back to a post-pandemic situation?

The second point I want to follow up on is that governments love using the word “efficiencies”, and politicians of every stripe throw that word around because it sounds very meaningful, but it's only as meaningful as the implementation. Can you flesh out the efficiencies you referred to in the province of Ontario to give me some confidence that they're meaningful and, combined with the decrease in funding, haven't had a negative impact on legal aid funding in the province?

[Nathalie Drouin]

Madam Chair, I'll start with the last question.

As Minister Lametti said, we have regular conversations with all our counterparts in the provinces. They have reassured us on the impact of their budget cuts and the fact that they have revisited the way they administer their legal aid plan, but I cannot provide specific examples of what they have done to increase their capacity and efficiency.

Regarding your question on immigration, we have a monitoring system, especially with our colleagues in Immigration Canada, making sure we are able to adjust and realign the immigration budget if immigration increases post pandemic.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Madam Chair, I think I have only about 20 seconds left, and that doesn't allow me enough time to add anything meaningful, so I'll just stop here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Maloney.

I will now go to Monsieur Fortin for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for you, Ms. Drouin. First of all, my thanks to you and your colleagues for being here. It is always nice to see you. The minister can't be expected to know the answers to all of our questions, so it's always helpful to know we can count on you for more information.

I want to bring up an issue I raised with the minister earlier, something my fellow members asked you about as well: the cuts in legal aid funding. If I understood you correctly, the $2 million that is no longer part of the funding was meant to make improvements and build innovation into the legal aid system. Did you have any discussions with your Quebec counterpart about those improvements and innovations? Has the problem been fixed? Did Quebec tell you that it did not need the money now?

[Nathalie Drouin]

The $2-million decrease is not something Quebec brought to our attention, at least not mine. As I was telling the honourable member earlier in relation to legal aid, I think the provinces are more focused right now on figuring out how to deal with the backlog of cases given that the courts significantly scaled back their operations during the pandemic. That is the top-of-mind issue currently, the one monopolizing the conversation. The other big issue right now is racism and the unconscious bias in the justice system; the focus is on how we can measure the system's effectiveness to reduce the repercussions on visible minorities. Those are really the two main priorities receiving the most attention at this time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

The pandemic has led to a troubling increase in the number of cases that have yet to be dealt with. The pandemic has forced families with dysfunctional dynamics into isolation together, without the reprieve of being able to leave the house. I don't need to explain the situation to you; you are no doubt as familiar with it as I am. We expect the number of complaints and court hearings to increase as a result.

In conjunction with that expected increase in complaints, transfers to the provinces were cut by $2 million, which I struggle to understand. I realize short-term funding was specifically provided for system improvements. However, if you were to ask anyone working in court administration in Quebec or even any member of the Quebec bar, I think they would all say the legal aid system is still very much in need of improvement and innovation. All kinds of programs have been put in place. Lawyers even volunteer their time to help people, but it's never enough. With all due respect, Ms. Drouin, I have trouble wrapping my head around these cuts. I gather that the only explanation is that the program no longer exists or was terminated.

[Nathalie Drouin]

It was actually a two-year program designed to increase innovation and efficiency in the legal aid systems around the country.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I see.

[Nathalie Drouin]

I'd like to make clear that the discontinuation of the program does not have an impact on the quality of service people receive.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I want to use the two minutes I have left to discuss the victims fund, which also received significantly less funding. In 2019-20, the fund had $26.3 million. The following year, 2021, the funding was cut drastically, dropping to $14.8 million. Now, the funding is supposed to increase to $22 million next year, which is still below 2019-20 levels. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me the fund should actually be receiving more funding given the problems caused by the pandemic over the past year and the growing number of victims choosing to turn to the justice system for help. Why was the funding for the victims fund cut?

[Nathalie Drouin]

I can answer that, Madam Chair.

A number of accounting considerations come into play, Mr. Fortin. The 2020-21 Main Estimates certainly gave the impression that the funding had been significantly cut back, but when you take the supplementary estimates into account, the amount is much closer to $25.4 million.

The best example I can give you is the family information liaison units program, which provides services to the families of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. Unfortunately, the program wasn't announced in conjunction with the main estimates. The program was announced afterwards, bringing the funding to a similar level—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Sorry to cut you off, but I have just a few seconds left.

If the fund had $25.4 million this year and the amount is being reduced to $22 million next year, it means less money will be available to meet the demand, which will likely rise. Isn't that right?

[Nathalie Drouin]

It's a matter of allocations. Certain programs sunsetted while others were renewed, including the family information liaison units. To answer your question, I would say the fluctuations in the numbers you are seeing have no real impact on the grants we provide to various organizations around the country.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Do I have a few seconds left, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

No. You've already had an extra half minute there, Monsieur Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

No? Okay.

Thank you, Ms. Drouin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I will now go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My colleagues have already canvassed a number of areas I would have asked about, including legal aid, the victims fund, immigration and refugee law and the Canadian Judicial Council, so I'm going to be very brief. I'm going to ask the indulgence of my colleagues to not have their eyes glaze over because I'm going to go back to disaggregated data. Any time people say words like “disaggregated data”, normal people zone out, rightfully, and when government ministers answer with a whole-of-government response, I think opposition members wonder which will come first: catastrophic climate change or action by the government.

Let me just turn to this question of disaggregated data, and I have two questions.

One is the general question that the minister left to his officials. Is there specific funding in the Department of Justice to do work on disaggregating data so that we know more about the extent of systemic racism in the justice system and can learn more about its causes?

My second question also has to do with disaggregated data. Are we looking further at data with regard to two other issues, one of which is gender and the second of which is Canadians living in poverty? We know that quite often the legal system comes down quite hard on people without the financial resources to defend themselves against charges.

Those are my two questions for the deputy minister.

Thank you.