Justice Committee on March 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 24 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. There are no members in the room, but for members' sake, the proceedings happening today will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so all members and witnesses are aware, the webcast will always show the person who is speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'll outline a few rules.

As all of you would know already, interpretation services are available. You know at the bottom of the toolbar where to find the interpretation services. You can speak in whichever of the official languages you choose; just make sure you select what you would like to listen to.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on the video conference, as all of you are, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. If you're not speaking, please make sure your microphone is on mute. I'll just remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

With respect to a speaking list, Mr. Clerk and I will do our best to maintain it. If you have any points of order, please raise your hand. At the bottom of the bar, a “raise hand” function allows me to know if you would like to raise any issues.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

Appearing before us today is the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

We also have, from the Department of Justice, Nathalie Drouin, deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general of Canada; François Daigle, associate deputy minister; Bill Kroll, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister; and Elizabeth Hendy, director general, programs branch, policy sector.

Welcome to all the guests.

We will now start with opening remarks from Minister Lametti for five minutes.

[David Lametti, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, colleagues, and thank you to all the members from my departmental team who are here with me today.

I am pleased to help the committee as it studies the 2020-21 supplementary estimates (C) and the 2021-22 main estimates for the Department of Justice.

I am joining you today from the Department of Justice Canada, which sits on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

Despite the challenging times, Justice Canada has accomplished an enormous volume of work to help ensure a fair, transparent and accessible Canadian justice system.

We continue on our reconciliation journey with indigenous peoples, including introducing Bill C-15, legislation respecting the implementation of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in Canada. This is fundamental to our broader efforts to tackle deep-rooted and systemic discrimination.

An important example of that is Bill C-22, which proposes changes that would reform sentencing practices and focus on diversion programs. It also proposes changes to treat substance use as a health issue, rather than a criminal one.

We also introduced Bill C-23, which provides greater flexibility on how courts hold criminal proceedings and issue orders. We must ensure that both victims and accused receive their fair and timely justice.

Ultimately, our goal is to ensure that our justice system remains fair, effective, accessible and equitable.

These priorities are echoed within the 2020-21 supplementary estimates (C), which include an additional $78.5 million this fiscal year, bringing the total budgetary authority for 2020-21 to $863.9 million.

Also, the 2021-22 main estimates include a budgetary authority of $794.5 million—an increase of $25.5 million from the previous fiscal year.

I would like to highlight a few key funding areas.

I mentioned Bill C-15 and our commitment to changing the relationship between the crown and indigenous peoples. To this end, the supplementary and main estimates include $2.6 million from the $2.8 million in funding announced in the 2020 fall economic statement. Coupled with funding provided to Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to support indigenous partners, this funding will help us continue the engagement process as the legislation moves through Parliament.

The supplementary and main estimates also include an increase of $7.3 million per year to continue to respond to the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls final report. This will extend family information liaison units and community-based services to provide direct support to families of victims.

We are also focused on supporting the courts. The supplementary estimates of both the court administration service and the registrar of the Supreme Court of Canada include funding to help courts serve Canadians and adapt to new realities.

The supplementary estimates also include $20.3 million to address immigration and refugee legal aid pressures, to help provinces maintain service delivery levels and prevent processing delays for asylum seekers.

We are also taking action to better respond to the needs of families, particularly children, during divorce or separation. The supplementary and main estimates include, respectively, $1 million and $6.7 million to implement new family support enforcement provisions and to increase access to family justice services in the official language of one's choice.

Budget 2019 announced funding of $21.6 million over five years, starting in 2020-21, to support these provisions. These funds will help the department transform the Canadian justice system to better serve all Canadians. Our government will continue to push ahead with measures to create a strong, equitable and effective justice system that protects Canadians, their communities and their rights.

Thank you for your time. I'm now happy to take questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Minister Lametti. You're at exactly five minutes on the dot. We really appreciate that.

We'll go to our first round of questions, at six minutes each.

Mr. Moore, please go ahead, sir.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for your appearance today. You've kept this committee busy. You're represented very ably on the committee and your department by Mr. Virani, but it's nice to see you in person as well. We appreciate the opportunity to ask some questions of you.

Minister, on the topic of the day today, you had said previously at the Senate that there was no consensus on proceeding with expanding MAID to those whose sole underlying condition is mental illness. You've now accepted an amendment that would require additional legislation to stop MAID from being expanded to those with mental illness.

The members of this committee don't always see eye to eye, but everyone works very hard on this committee. We take our responsibilities very seriously. When we studied MAID in Bill C-7, the mental illness component was not a part of it. This is causing grave concerns. I have a letter that was sent to me and signed by many organizations that I know you're familiar with and respect, who have concerns about this.

In light of the vote that's taking place tonight, would you use your influence to at least provide that your Liberal members of Parliament have a free vote on the Conservative amendment to remove the mental illness component in Bill C-7?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Moore, for your question. Thank you for all your work on this committee, and thank you for the shout-out to my able parliamentary secretary, Arif Virani. It's a pleasure to be able to work with both of you.

Your question is an important one. My understanding is that our party has instructed all of my colleagues that it is a free vote this evening. My understanding is that it's true for both the amendment and the main motion.

With respect to mental illness, it's a serious question. We know that. It's a difficult question—we know that too—and it touches all of us profoundly. We're increasing our knowledge about mental illness daily. I will repeat what I said before, which is that there isn't a consensus yet on how to move forward.

That being said, it was always going to be the case, given the Supreme Court decision in Carter, that we would have to look at that seriously. It was always going to be the case that we were going to look at it in the next phase of the parliamentary review, and that will still be the case. None of that has changed.

What has changed is that we have moved forward with the joint parliamentary committee of the House and Senate to review the legislation. We have moved forward with the idea, following the Senate amendment proposal, of moving ahead with a committee of experts to study the question in great detail. It's an important and difficult question. I certainly understand that, but we have to move forward with it. We can't simply avoid it. We have to try to find a way forward, given the seriousness of mental illness and given the challenging issues that surround it with respect to MAID.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

I know we all have a responsibility to move forward together, and I know you and I haven't seen 100% eye to eye on the issue of Bill C-7. The world wouldn't be a very interesting place if we all agreed 100% of the time.

However, on this, I really strongly feel the wishes of this House of Commons and even your testimony.... I respect you and your opinion—the opinion that would have been backed by the charter analysis conducted by the Department of Justice—that, in fact, the bill as presented and as studied in the Senate was, in your opinion, constitutional.

With this amendment to include those.... I know we all share Bell's Let's Talk; we all urge people who are struggling with mental illness to try to get the help they need, to talk to friends and to reach out. I'm looking at a list that was sent to me: the Canadian Hospice Palliative Care Association, the Canadian Institute for Inclusion and Citizenship, Communication Disabilities Access Canada, Inclusion Canada, the British Columbia Aboriginal Network on Disability Society, the Council of Canadians with Disabilities, and the list goes on. There are well over a hundred individual organizations that are asking members of Parliament to please, at this point, not include mental illness. As you said, Minister, we should have started this study a year ago under Bill C-14 on possible expansions to MAID, but this is putting the cart way before the horse.

I appreciate the response you gave—that Liberal members will be given a free vote—and I hope they support Canadians with disabilities on this.

Minister, I have only 30 seconds, so I just have a quick question on consecutive sentences. The Quebec Court of Appeal reduced the sentence of the man who murdered six people in the Quebec City mosque to 25 years without parole rather than 40, after striking down consecutive sentences. Do you intend to defend this law?

Thank you, Minister.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Moore, for your question, but thank you also for the tone with which you're asking it because I very much appreciate the open-minded tone on both questions actually, particularly on the sensitivity surrounding MAID and mental illness. I thank you for that.

With respective to consecutive sentences, my counterpart in Quebec, the Attorney General of Quebec, has appealed that decision. We are still studying it, and we are in communication with that office, but there is no decision at the present time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

That concludes your time, Mr. Moore. I appreciate your questions.

We'll now go to Ms. Brière for six minutes.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Good morning, Minister. Thank you for being with us this morning.

I'd like to begin by congratulating you on increasing the access to justice in both official languages support fund from $9 million to $12 million in 2021-22. Access to justice in the official language of choice for a Canadian living in a minority language community remains an important issue. I'm glad you share this concern. Could you explain to us what those additional funds will be used for?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mrs. Brière.

Canadians expect to live in a society where the justice system is fair and impartial and respects victims. With our changes to the Divorce Act, which came into force just over a week ago, we are investing in official languages to protect people's right to be heard in their own language. We have provided funding to help the provinces adapt to the changes and provide services in both official languages in these difficult times.

We've also used the funds to facilitate access to justice in both official languages. The best example I can give you, as a Quebec MP, is the support we've given to Éducaloi in Quebec. This is an organization led by the dynamic Ariane Charbonneau. In concrete terms, these funds are used to inform Quebec society about the legal aspects of situations that may arise on a daily basis. We've done this especially for sexual harassment. Éducaloi, which provides information to all communities in Quebec, whether they are majority or minority official language communities, will develop educational tools. The organization also contributes to the victims assistance fund in order to make victims aware of the services available to them.

So we'll continue to help such organizations on the ground to provide services to Canada's official language minority communities.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

You mentioned sexual harassment. You announced in early March an investment in Botler AI, which will improve access to justice and combat sexual harassment. This investment is part of a five-year, $50 million fund announced in 2018 to address this type of harassment in the workplace.

Can you tell us about the status of that fund and the steps that have been taken?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

We fund several programs in Canada. Everyone has the right to work in a workplace free from sexual harassment. Unfortunately, we aren't there yet, and we need to continue to work on that.

You mentioned the fantastic project by Botler AI, a Montreal-based company. This project will provide help to victims through a conversational robot, which could interact with them. This is an example of a project made possible by artificial intelligence.

We've also provided funding to the Ending Violence Association of British Columbia, which received $1.7 million to improve access to justice for victims of sexual harassment in the workplace.

We have funded other programs in Canada to provide information to people who think they have witnessed sexual harassment or who have unfortunately been victims of it. So there's a range of programs available in Canada, and I'm very proud of the ones we've supported so far.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you very much.

Last November you held a virtual forum on diversity in the judiciary. It was in response to reforms to the judicial appointment process that went into effect in 2016. Since those reforms, your department has appointed 400 judges, two-thirds of whom are women and many of whom are black, racialized or indigenous.

Can you tell us about the efforts you've made and those you intend to make to further this process?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for your question.

I've held forums in French and English, both with newly appointed judges and with members of judicial advisory committees and others in the community, to build trust in the system.

In order to put their names forward, racialized people need to be comfortable and confident in the system. Often, that isn't the case, and therefore they don't want to apply. I'm building a positive relationship with communities across Canada.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mrs. Brière.

Mr. Fortin, you have six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Minister. I'm glad to see you here this morning.

You talked to us about appointments and trust in the system, but I imagine you meant confidence, in this case confidence in the appointment system.

Do I have that right?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Yes, basically.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Have you received complaints from people who don't trust the appointment system?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for your question.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Aside from my own, of course.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Yes, exactly.

The current system was implemented in 2016. It took a lot of work to get the advisory committees, which provide advice, up and running. They are doing their job in a non-partisan way. Across the country, chief justices, other system administrators and members of the bar are unanimous—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I have no doubt about it, Mr. Minister. Pardon me for interrupting you. That wasn't my intention, but you know how it works. We have very little time. My question was simply whether you'd received any complaints about the selection committee.

I understand that the answer is no. You've never received a complaint about the appointment system.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

There haven't been any as far as I know. Things are going very well.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I'm going to change the subject and talk about legal aid programs.

In 2019-20, you provided an additional $11 million to the legal aid program. I'm talking about transfers to the provinces for the delivery of criminal services. However, the 2021-22 budget indicates a $2 million reduction to this program.

Can you explain the reasons for this reduction?