Justice Committee on May 6th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

That concludes your time, Mr. Garrison.

We'll now go into our second round of questions for five minutes.

Mr. Lewis, you're up first.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses. It was very good testimony, once again.

This is a really important conversation, and it's a tough conversation that's been going on for quite some time, I believe.

I am listening very closely to the testimony and I have a few questions, because although this does fall under provincial jurisdiction to a greater extent, I believe that the federal government can help out with this.

To any of the panel, what conversations have been had with your provincial counterparts on what could better help seniors, and what resources are required?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Who is that for, Mr. Lewis?

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

That is for anybody on the panel who could answer my question, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I'll leave it to the witnesses.

Ms. Underwood, please go ahead.

[Kristen Underwood]

Madam Chair, I think I could talk a little about the work the government has been doing or supporting for the Health Standards Organization and the CSA group that are working together on engaging a broad range of stakeholders across the health care system and the public to develop national health care standards.

Work is under way on developing better standards in long-term care that will address the safe delivery, reliable high-quality services and health infrastructure and environmental design in long-term care. That work is ongoing, so I can't speak to the specifics of what is happening.

Also I should mention that in Budget 2021, the government has committed to proposed funding for the Public Health Agency of Canada of $50 million over five years to design and deliver interventions that promote safe relationships and prevent family violence, including elder abuse. This is less in the institutional setting and more in the individual space, but I think that's important to include as well.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Back to Ms. Underwood, what role can the federal government play to support further research on how to best combat elder abuse?

[Kristen Underwood]

The federal government does need to stay in the space—including with the Criminal Code—as other members have mentioned today, Madam Chair. I'll turn back to Madam Morency for that discussion.

Also, I think our role is supporting provinces and territories in looking at the standards they have in place in their jurisdictions, so it's a leadership and support role in that space, and other funding to prevent elder abuse, as I mentioned.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much.

Most Canadians believe that elder abuse goes unnoticed, but when it is reported, how often is the abuser prosecuted? What is the success rate in the courts for victims of elder abuse?

[Carole Morency]

Again, unfortunately, we in the Department of Justice aren't in a position to collect that type of data. I encourage the committee to consider reaching out to Statistics Canada for that.

When we look at reported case law, we definitely are seeing.... It depends, and not all cases that are charged and prosecuted end up being reported as case law. When we look at the reported case law, we see more cases that occur involving abuse, sexual assault, neglect, fraud, than we do, for example, in a long-term care setting. We have not been able to find very many cases.

That's an excellent question and there definitely is a strong interest to find that connection, but I do think that the family violence report by Statistics Canada, which I mentioned, or someone from Statistics Canada may be able to address your question more directly.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much to all of the witnesses.

I will certainly side with Mr. Garrison on this front: It would have been fantastic to have the minister here to answer our questions, but I do appreciate all of the witnesses here.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Lewis.

I will now go to Mr. Lauzon for five minutes.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thanks, Madam Chair. I will share my time with my colleague Arif.

I want to thank everyone for inviting me to this meeting. I think your work is very important, especially your study on seniors. This is a delicate issue, particularly the physical and financial abuse of seniors. I often think of financial abuse, but we also know that property can disappear. We can also discuss psychological and physical abuse. Unfortunately, seniors may also experience sexual abuse. So it's a very delicate issue and one I consider important.

For many years now, Statistics Canada has been gathering information on violence against seniors. We know from gender-based analysis that women are more vulnerable. That's also an issue I consider important.

Do we know what categories of seniors are particularly affected? Are there any specific age groups?

What direction should our study take in order to address the issue of age groups and the fact that women are more affected than men?

I think Ms. Morency is best qualified to answer that question.

[Carole Morency]

Again, the “Family violence in Canada: A statistical profile, 2019” report does provide some of that information from Statistics Canada, as noted. It talks in particular about violence against seniors at the hands of someone known to the victim, but it also gives a little information about stranger violence against seniors by way of comparison. I commend that report. I'm happy to provide it to the committee in English and French. It does provide some of that background.

Yes, as noted, it can often be the case, and is often the case, that women are more vulnerable, but it's not only women who suffer elder abuse, senior abuse. It takes a variety of forms.

One of the challenges is getting better data and having it reported, and it's like domestic or intimate-partner violence. When it occurs in a private setting, it's often difficult for victims to know that they can report. Who do they report to, who can they get help from? That's why the Department of Justice is supporting additional or enhanced materials, public legal education materials, for victims or potential victims of elder abuse to help them understand where they can go for help.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you for that answer.

Since I want to leave some time for my colleague Mr. Virani, I have a brief but very important final question to which I'd appreciate a short answer.

How can the $50 million set aside in the 2021 budget help address senior abuse? What measures would it cover?

[Kristen Underwood]

Madam Chair, I think we'd need to talk to the Public Health Agency specifically on how the money will be distributed. It will support, or is intended to support, the prevention of abuse in relationships in terms of family violence, but also includes elders.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you.

I yield the floor to Mr. Virani.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Go ahead, you have one minute.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Monsieur Lauzon.

Very briefly, I agree with the problem that's been highlighted by Mr. Garrison that seniors in care have been failed during the course of the pandemic, but I also understand and know that we don't direct law enforcement officials about where and when to lay charges, and that's an important aspect of a democracy.

Given that's the context we're in, if we were of a mind to increase the tools in the tool box for laying charges—given that the Speech from the Throne refers explicitly to penalizing “those who neglect seniors under their care, putting them in danger”—Ms. Morency, do you have any suggestions as to how those improvements could be made to the Criminal Code?

Thanks.

[Carole Morency]

As and when the government moves forward with its proposals to amend the Criminal Code in support of that commitment, obviously we would normally—and we would definitely, in this particular case—look to work closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts to enhance their understanding of what's being proposed but also about the tools that exist already in the Criminal Code.

I do think all of us will be informed, as well, by new information and findings that are coming forth. For example, I mentioned already the report in Ontario last Friday, which took what I would call an “in the moment” type of snapshot of what has happened so quickly during the first wave of the pandemic.

As we, at the federal, provincial and territorial table, move forward to look at this—and for us it's in the Criminal Code context or the criminal law context—I think we definitely would be looking to work with our counterparts to enhance awareness about existing new tools and what we can do to share information more easily with each other.

I do think more will come to the forefront as we progress through and learn about other.... As my colleague has said, there are civil lawsuits at play as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

That concludes your time, Mr. Virani.

We'll now go to Monsieur Fortin for two and a half minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to continue along the same lines.

Ms. Morency, here's what I understand from your remarks. First, a report will be prepared between now and late 2022, including statistics on physical violence against and financial abuse of seniors. Certain current statutory provisions may be reviewed in light of those figures.

In the meantime, am I to understand from your testimony that you think elder abuse cases have increased over the past 5 or 10 years?

[Carole Morency]

That is my understanding from that report as well. The “Family violence in Canada: A statistical profile, 2019” did conclude that there has been an increase in the level of violence against seniors, including in the family violence context. Absolutely, we do need better, broader and disaggregated data, and that's part of what we're going to work towards to help us be in a position to better collect that data through Statistics Canada.

In the meantime, there is some data that shows what you've just noted.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I see.

The provinces are now in a somewhat difficult position. The federal government manages the criminal aspect of this matter through the Criminal Code, but the fact remains that the care seniors need falls within the provinces' jurisdiction.

Consequently, if case numbers are generally rising, shouldn't we recommend an increase in federal health transfers to the provinces to try to compensate for the additional problem seniors have experienced in recent years?

[Carole Morency]

I'm not sure if my colleague Ms. Underwood wants to speak to that.

I would just say that, as an official at the Department of Justice, I'm not well positioned to speak to transfers of funds dealing with health.