Justice Committee on May 25th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Monsieur Fortin for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank all the witnesses again. I want to say to those that I will not be calling on that it is not because I do not find them interesting. There is one topic that I am particularly interested in and that I would like to discuss with Mr. Prud'homme. We only have two minutes.

As I understand it, Mr. Prud'homme, you were on a committee on aging at the global level, at the UN. Obviously, as part of our work, it would be interesting to know what the UN is doing about elder abuse. I would love to hear from you about that.

[Danis Prud'homme]

Thank you for your question.

For three years, from 2013 to 2016, several experts from around the world looked at what tools could be put in place regarding the rights of older people. I'm going to talk about rights in a broad way while focusing on what you asked me about.

We found that there were no tools dedicated to the rights of older adults. Much like we did for women, children, and indigenous people, we need to establish an international convention to publicize and protect these rights. Then it's a matter of defining the tools that will flow from that and that will be developed and modified. Then we can take the necessary steps to adequately protect the elderly from abuse and fraud.

In fact, what was considered, once it became necessary to establish a convention, was everything related to elder abuse, fraud and mistreatment. Right now, a lot of the tools are geared towards people with disabilities or mental retardation. The majority of seniors are not physically or mentally impaired. So there's nothing that covers them in a general way right now, and that's why we need to address this more broadly and focus on this issue.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

As we only have a few seconds left, I would like you to give us an overview of the seniors' rights you are addressing.

[Danis Prud'homme]

We're talking about the right to social participation, so the right of a person to continue to contribute to society for as long as he or she can. Even if they have a disease like dementia, they have moments of lucidity, which allows them to regain control. They can do this. The Public Curator of Quebec has already begun to take into account the situation of people who are not totally deprived of moments of lucidity.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

When can we expect some kind of model on these issues from the UN?

Is there a short-term deadline?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Your time is up, Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I would just like to know when, Madam Chair. It could be helpful.

[Danis Prud'homme]

Unfortunately, in quite a while, about 10 years' time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Prud'homme.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to return to the witnesses from CanAge to talk a bit more about the question of corporations being held responsible for their failure to provide care during the pandemic. Does CanAge believe that the Criminal Code can get at corporate ownership when it comes to the policies that keep precarious workers working in long-term care homes and can get at the other kinds of things that have contributed to the terrible tragedy we saw in long-term care homes?

[Laura Tamblyn Watts]

It has been a terrible tragedy. With respect to what Mr. Berkes said, there are, of course, some provisions that are never used in Canada against long-term care homes. I respectfully believe, however, that the current Criminal Code provisions do not go far enough to reach into those areas and don't speak to criminal endangerment.

There are challenges when it comes to private, public and municipal homes, but I don't believe there is any way in particular to delineate them. Across this country, we have different ways of funding long-term care, and there is about a fifty-fifty mix of public and private. I do believe in the development of national standards, but that needs to be tethered to dollars and to a bill of rights associated with elder abuse and older people.

I do not think the Criminal Code as is goes far enough in creating a charge that will get laid against long-term care homes, and I think a study about criminal endangerment needs to be made available to respond to those issues.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to return to the Canadian Bar Association. First of all, I will make it clear that I thank you for putting emphasis on the other things we need in order to bring attention to the problem of elder abuse, other than just an amendment to the Criminal Code.

I appreciate the fact that you said you favour national standards. Do you believe that if there were national standards, the failure to meet those standards on a systematic basis would be covered by the current Criminal Code provisions?

[Jody Berkes]

In terms—

[Jessica L. Lyle]

I'm going to take this one for a second, Jody. You can chime in in a second.

The reality is that, as our positions make very clear in terms of our written brief, there are Criminal Code provisions. What we are looking for is creating standards and knowledge.

Jody, I'm sure, will chime in on a few things differently, but I do believe that if we are clear about what the expectations are and what the knowledge that our team on the ground, be they judges, prosecutors and police.... If they know what the test is, so to speak, then they can absolutely apply the Criminal Code as it is.

Jody.

[Jody Berkes]

I agree. I concur.

There's a difference between evidence and charges. Having national standards would provide that metric, that evidence needed in a prosecution in order to secure a conviction. A breach of that standard is prima facie evidence.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

Thanks very much, Mr. Garrison.

Thank you to the witnesses. At this time, we will suspend as we bring in our next panel of witnesses, but I must say that this whole conversation today has been very compelling. We've had very strong testimony from each and every one of you. We really appreciate how much that will inform our study.

Thank you again.

We will suspend for a couple of minutes as we bring in our next panellists.

Thank you, everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Welcome to our witnesses who are joining us on this panel.

As just a quick housekeeping—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair. I'm being told that the French interpretation is not available right now.

I just got word it's working again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Mr. Clerk, can I just clarify that? Are we having ongoing issues with interpretation?

[The Clerk]

The interpretation is working now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Clerk.

Just before I introduce our witnesses, I'll go over some housekeeping rules.

Please take note of the interpretation bar at the bottom of your Zoom screen and select the language you'd like to listen to. You can speak in the language you choose, English or French. When you are not speaking, ensure that you are on mute; and when you are speaking, please wait to be recognized by the chair. Ensure that you speak slowly and clearly so that we don't have any interpretation issues throughout this process. I have a one-minute card and a 30-second card to help you keep time.

With that, I'll introduce our witnesses.

For the second panel, we have the Council to Reduce Elder Abuse, represented by Sherry Baker, who is the executive director of the B.C. Association of Community Response Networks. We also have Seniors First B.C., represented by Marie-Noël Campbell, executive director and lawyer; and Eric B. Clavier, lawyer and president, board of directors. Lastly, we have Statistics Canada, represented by Jeff Latimer, the director general of health, justice, diversity and populations; and Kathy AuCoin, the chief of the analysis program at the Canadian Centre for Justice and Community Safety Statistics.

Welcome to each and every one of you.

We'll start with the Council to Reduce Elder Abuse. Please go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Sherry Baker, Executive Director, BC Association of Community Response Networks and Member, Council to Reduce Elder Abuse]

Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members of the standing committee, for the opportunity to contribute to the important work you are doing to study elder abuse in Canada.

I am proud to be able to describe to you the fine work being done in British Columbia to raise the awareness of abuse, neglect and self-neglect, and to help our communities find ways to prevent this.

The last two provincial governments have recognized that this issue is often hidden, little understood and extremely damaging to older and vulnerable adults throughout the province. For the last 10 years they have funded the work that our organizations are doing, and it is my distinct pleasure to have been involved since the beginning.

I have written a more detailed description of how the B.C. Association of Community Response Networks and the Council to Reduce Elder Abuse are organized to work towards reducing elder abuse by concentrating on supporting a local community response.

Here is just a sampling of the issues and remedies that you can consider. One, middle-aged children of aging parents find it difficult to help their growing families' needs. They see their parents with assets, and they think it would be good if they could have their inheritance before their parents die.

Two, when companies find themselves having to downsize or, as is happening during the COVID pandemic, having to lay off workers, many wage earners are finding themselves desperate and move back into their parents' home, often with children.

Three, immigrant families often bring older family members from their homeland to help look after the children. Sometimes these older adults are not provided with any freedom to create a safe life for themselves, which is further hindered by the inability to speak English or French.

Four, adding to the challenges of reconciliation, decolonization and the impact of residential schools, some of the older indigenous Canadians are also faced with pressure from their younger family members, who expect them to provide financial support to help them deal with their own issues.

I would like to list some of the ways that the federal government can play a role in reducing elder abuse.

First, it can understand that it is a systemic issue, and there is no quick fix.

When considering mandatory reporting, understand that most elder abuse is perpetrated by family members, and few parents will report or lay charges against their own child. This could have the effect of driving the abuse further underground.

As Krista James of the Canadian Centre for Elder Law said at the last hearing, abused adults don't want their family members to go to jail; “they just want the abuse to stop.”

It can provide support for law reform initiatives.

It can provide support for the key role played by the RCMP so they can respond effectively.

It can provide support for research projects, which help seniors live safely in their own homes.

It can provide support for research into what causes elder abuse.

It can provide support for safe and accessible housing projects for elders.

It can provide support for job creation and retraining for people trying to enter the workforce or dealing with being downsized or laid off.

It can provide support for training for frontline workers in institutions as well as in the community.

It can provide support for English as a second-language projects for immigrant seniors, along with other settlement services.

It can provide support for indigenous communities in developing safe and healthy housing for their families and elders.

It can provide support for mental health and addiction services, especially for families in crisis. No individual can be forced into therapy, so there needs to be supports in place to help them want to change.

It can provide support for the development of safe and accessible transition houses for older adults and allow a longer stay. In B.C. a woman can only stay for 30 days in a transition house.

It can provide support for the development of a national elder abuse strategy.

I've included a lot more information in the brief that I've submitted to you.

I look forward to answering your questions.

Thank you.