Justice Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

You're at three and a half minutes now, Monsieur Fortin. You've had a minute extra.

I appreciate your passion on this. Thank you so much.

We'll go to Mr. Garrison now for two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to go back to the Justice officials.

This week Justice Fish released his report on military justice. It's a 400-page report; I don't expect everyone in the country to have read it. I have only managed to make it through one read.

One of the things he talks about is the fact that victims in the military justice system do not have the same rights as they do in the public justice system. Bill C-77 hasn't been fully proclaimed, even though it was passed two years ago. He suggests that there should be some kind of joint working group between Justice and Defence to try to harmonize or make sure that the National Defence Act provides the same victims' rights and protections that are provided in our civilian system.

Are either of you aware of any work that's gone on with the Department of Defence on trying to make sure that victims' rights are fully implemented in the military justice system?

[Carole Morency]

I will try to briefly respond.

Since the development of what became the CVBR in Bill C-32, Justice Canada has worked closely with the Department of National Defence in developing what has become the “civilian VBR”. They weren't in a position to bring forward similar amendments on their part because it's a much more complicated regime. As you know, Bill C-77 is still to come into force.

We do continue to work with them on various Criminal Code reforms, including on victim support and, over the last few years, in supporting particular interests on how to support victims of sexual assault through the process.

On a go-forward basis, I think the government has indicated that it will work to address that. We, in the Department of Justice, will do our best to support the government, moving forward, in addressing the issues.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you for that answer. It's very good news indeed.

One of the things that Justice Fish said, which I know you will not be able to comment on, but I will, is that until the victims' rights in the military justice system are the same as those of the civilian system, sexual assault cases should not be handled by the military justice system.

I want to thank you for that work that you're doing with the Department of Defence and acknowledge that it's very, very important work.

And with that, I'll end my questioning, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison. You're on the dot with your two and a half minutes. I appreciate that.

That concludes our round of questions. Before we suspend for the next panel, I really want to thank MP Tim Louis who joined us today, replacing Mr. Virani for a little bit there.

Tim, thank you so much for joining us in our justice meeting today.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today and for your very compelling testimony.

We'll suspend for one to two minutes as we let in our witness for the next hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Welcome back, everyone, for our second hour of this justice committee meeting on the Victims Bill of Rights.

I understand that Ms. Illingworth has been here before and she knows the rules, but I'll just reinforce them so that everybody is aware.

When you are speaking, please ensure that you are unmuted and that you speak slowly and clearly for interpreters. When you are done speaking, please ensure that you are back on mute. You have the same interpretation services that are available to members. At the bottom of your screen, select the language that you'd like to listen to. You can speak in any of our official languages.

With that, I would like to welcome Ms. Illingworth, who will be providing opening remarks for five minutes. For members who don't know her, she is from the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime.

Welcome, and thank you for your time, Ms. Illingworth.

Please go ahead. You have five minutes to make your opening remarks.

[Heidi Illingworth, Ombudsman, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to begin by expressing my sorrow for the indigenous families who are grieving the discovery of 215 children found in a mass grave at the residential school in Kamloops. I stand in solidarity with all indigenous peoples seeking justice.

Today, we also mark the release of the national action plan on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and 2SLGBTQQIA+ people in response to the calls for justice of the national inquiry released two years ago, and I am just here from that ceremony, which is actually ongoing right now.

It's timely that I'm here this morning to discuss the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, which came into force in 2015, because more than five years later a number of fundamental gaps and challenges remain for victims, especially racialized and 2SLGBTQQIA+ people. It is our view that the CVBR must be strengthened to better support all victims and survivors of crime.

Last November, my office launched a progress report on the CVBR, informed by what we hear every day from stakeholders in our frontline work—survivors and the people who work with victims and criminal justice personnel all across the country. Based on our analysis of the data available to us, we would say that the justice system really falls short on delivering the promised rights and that it is time to conduct a statutory review of this legislation.

Every year, more than two million Canadians report criminal incidents to the police, almost a quarter of which are violent, but we don't know how many of these victims are being informed of their rights at all, let alone whether these rights are upheld as victims make their way through the justice system. I believe that the right to information is a foundational or a gateway right and that without information being provided to them, victims are unable to access any of the other rights outlined in the CVBR or any other legislation.

Currently, victims receive information only upon request, meaning that they must know to ask for it. However, unless an official actually tells them they have rights, they are unlikely to know that these rights exist. It is my view that criminal justice officials must be mandated to inform victims of their rights. As written, the CVBR puts the onus on victims to know, understand and assert their rights. Therefore, the implementation of this CVBR over the last six years has been sporadic and inconsistent. There has been no major effort to systematically inform citizens of their rights, which would ensure that people are less marginalized when they come into contact with the justice system. Criminal justice personnel have not been assigned clear roles and responsibilities in regard to delivering victims' rights, and training opportunities for officials have been limited. Many are not fully aware of the act and its implications, and data that we have about victims is not collected or published in a consistent manner across the country.

We believe that Parliament can strengthen this act to hold officials accountable for respecting victims' rights and to require institutions to collect and report data to measure their compliance with the act. Parliament should also amend the legislation to guarantee access to support services for victims with regard to their medical, psychological, legal and safety needs. That means we need to increase the capacity of victim-serving organizations and community-based restorative justice programs through sustainable core funding to ensure that victims can access services in every part of this country.

The last issue I would like to raise, and probably most critical in my view, is the legal recourse or remedy that victims have if their rights are violated. Currently, victims do not have a way to enforce the rights given to them in law; they only have a right to make a complaint to various agencies. This means that victims have to rely on the goodwill of criminal justice officials and corrections officials to give effect to or implement their statutory rights under the bill. This means victims count on police, Crown prosecutors, courts, review boards, corrections officials and parole boards to deliver, uphold and respect their rights.

But my office continues to receive complaints from victims that are common across all jurisdictions in Canada. Victims report to us that they are not consistently provided information about their rights or how to exercise them, they feel overlooked in all of the processes, and they have no recourse when officials don't respect their rights.

I'm looking forward to sharing our progress report with all of you, honourable members. We made 15 recommendations last year to strengthen this legislation. When victims' rights in law are fully respected, we will help victims recover; we will strengthen the rule of law; we will enhance public safety, and we will contribute to offender rehabilitation as well.

I welcome the opportunity to answer your questions. Thank you. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Ms. Illingworth.

We will now go to Mr. Moore for the first round of questions for six minutes.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Illingworth, for appearing today on what is no doubt a busy day for you.

I want to get your thoughts. I know that you have written to members of this committee about the importance of the review that's contained in the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights. As you know, his legislation came into force almost six years ago and there is supposed to be a review within five years. That's part of the reason why we wanted to do this brief committee study: to hear from you, from victims and from other stakeholders on, obviously, how things are working and what can be improved.

Can you speak to the importance that we do the full review that's provided for in the legislation, and what would you like to see by way of outcomes? Without prejudging the review, what are the types of outcomes that you would like to see?

[Heidi Illingworth]

Thank you so much.

Yes. I think it's critically important that the review happen. From the point of view of our office, like I said, we continue to receive complaints from victims in every province and territory about their treatment, about the lack of access that they have to their rights at certain times and to being provided information about their rights. We really need to see the legislation reviewed at this time so that we can look at the gaps and the challenges that still exist. We have highlighted a number of those in our progress report, which I will share for you.

Critically, what we hear from victims.... The largest gap in the bill in its current form is that there's no ability to enforce the rights within the act. I think that's a really critical issue that the review will need to look at: How do we actually hold the officials and the system accountable for ensuring that victims' rights are delivered to them in a practical way?

The other thing we really care about is a lack of access to the services and supports that people need, including mental health supports. It will be important to look at that gap, as well, across the country, especially in remote rural areas where there just isn't funding and capacity to deliver all those services at times.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Can you speak to a couple of things?

I think one of the themes we hear is the overlapping jurisdictions, responsibility when it comes to victims' rights. As you mentioned, the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights enshrines in law certain rights, but enforceability becomes the issue.

What do you see as the main cause of someone's not being aware of their rights or not receiving the services they should be provided with under the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights? Is there, within the Canadian context, some example that you would hold out as a standard that we should aspire to, or do we have to look internationally for that when it comes to victims' rights? Is there some jurisdiction you could point us to about which you would say, “They are getting it right, and victims services have been improved in this jurisdiction”?

[Heidi Illingworth]

Thank you.

We have a challenge in Canada, certainly, because the law is made at the federal level but the provinces administer the justice system. They're responsible for victim services, as well, in large part. This is a shared responsibility. Service for victims—supporting victims in the aftermath of violence—is a shared responsibility, so I really want to advocate that we work together at the federal and provincial levels to improve our response to victims.

As I said, it doesn't matter in which province or territory you live in this country, because we are hearing common complaints from victims across all of these jurisdictions. They're not necessarily being informed of their rights and when they report to the police, they're not aware.

We really need to look at how to make sure that officials within the system—the gatekeepers—are accountable to victims, that there are requirements they have to fulfill when it comes to informing victims. It all starts with that information about their rights, so they can exercise their other rights—to protection, to participation and to seek restitution—as they progress through the criminal justice system.

I don't want to be critical and say that no one's getting it right. I think there are jurisdictions in Canada that are doing a good job, but we certainly recognize that improvements can be made. It starts with strengthening this legislation to give victims a more equitable situation in the justice system. Right now they consistently report that they're overlooked, that people don't provide them the information they need and that they aren't aware of services.

We need to ensure that justice system officials are responsible for delivering the information, support and access to services that victims need, whether it's protection, safety, housing, mental health...all of that.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

We'll now go to Mr. Virani for six minutes.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Illingworth. It's a pleasure to have you back at the committee. Your insights are invaluable, and I acknowledge the ceremony you were just at.

I want to ask you about the indigenous perspective in particular, given that this is top of mind right now, as it should be.

You mentioned that the Victims Bill of Rights hasn't been assisting racialized people and those from the LGBTQ2 community the way that it needs to. I know that in your work you have implemented an indigenous advisory circle to help shape your upcoming projects and plans.

Could you speak to what that is and how it is working? I have two more questions, so it would be great if we could keep each response to about 90 seconds.

Thank you.

[Heidi Illingworth]

Sure. Thanks so much.

At our office, we have created an indigenous advisory circle. We have knowledge keepers from across the country, who are affected family members of MMIWG, service providers, elders, two-spirit individuals and survivors. Sometimes they are working for a provincial association representing indigenous people; sometimes they are working for the federal government and sometimes they are academics, but they're all indigenous and right now they are all women. The circle meets quarterly and advises us about the work we're doing.

As we try to strengthen victims' rights in Canada and ensure that the voices of victims are being heard by our office, they're advising us on how to do this and how to reach more indigenous communities. Our office has struggled to build trust across first nations, Métis and Inuit communities. They're helping us to do that and to inform and improve the work we do. This can include recommendations to government when we're looking at the complaints that victims bring to us.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I want to pivot to an aspect of victim safety, which is firearm safety. I know you've spoken out about supporting expanded “red flag” laws to include family members, victims and other community members to allow them to report potentially dangerous individuals, especially in regard to reducing suicides and intimate partner violence.

You know that red flag laws are currently a subject of discussion in Parliament. That's part of what Bill C-21 considers, if my numbers are correct.

Could you elaborate on what “red flag” laws would do in assisting victims?

[Heidi Illingworth]

Yes, we are interested in the use of red flag laws to help to potentially remove firearms in situations where there may be a risk, particularly in cases of domestic violence against women and children in the home. We have some reservations about putting the onus on family members to do this reporting. Certainly, we do recognize the importance of sometimes having neighbours or extended family members be able to flag concerns—and physicians as well.

Right now there's kind of a delay in this process, because there has to be an application, I think, to the chief firearms officer to do this. We're really interested in how we can speed this process up to have firearms removed from a situation where there is increased risk and in how perhaps community agencies can be involved in supporting the people who need it—the victims and survivors who might reach out for help. Perhaps they, themselves, can't report this immediately, because it increases the risks they face from the abuser who may have access to weapons.

How can we do this and ensure that police are able to respond in a swifter and timely manner?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Illingworth.

Last, we recently achieved royal assent of Bill C-3, the bill that dealt with judicial training, specifically on matters relating to sexual assault. It was widened to consider social context, including things like systemic racism and systemic discrimination. Those, I think, are useful changes in the right direction.

Can you comment on what a bill like Bill C-3 does, broadly speaking, in the context of victims, particularly victims of things like domestic violence or sexual assault?

[Heidi Illingworth]

Certainly it's important for judges to have training on the law on sexual assault and how to apply it, and context is important as well for that. We're pleased that the legislation was passed recently.

We hope that provinces and territories will enact similar legislation to ensure that training is applied to judges at the provincial court level as well. We know that's where the majority of these sorts of cases are heard. We want to make sure that we can stop the situations we've seen recently, where the law was applied inappropriately or sexual assault myths were allowed to invade the courtroom. Those stereotypes are really negative and have a negative impact on the outcomes of justice.

It's definitely a positive that it's passed, and we're looking forward to the provinces hopefully following suit.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you so much for your responses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Virani.

We'll now go to Monsieur Fortin for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Ms. Illingworth. I'm happy to see you today.

I would like to address an issue that we discussed earlier with other witnesses and that has to do with the families of people who are convicted of crimes. For example, it could be the children of a criminal or the parents of a young person who is convicted of a crime.

Under the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, are they considered victims? According to the definition in section 2, I would think so, but I would like to have your opinion on that.

Also, what services will be offered to these people?

[Heidi Illingworth]

If I understood that correctly, you're asking if families of people who are found guilty of crimes should be considered victims under the bill. To me, I think we would have to look at the context here. If the family members of that person who's been convicted are the victims in that situation, then, yes, certainly. It would depend on who the offender has victimized.

We know there are gaps when it comes to family members of offenders. There are some NGOs who work to support families in this area, but I think we have improvements to make in Canada when it comes to services here, as well as for victims of crime.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Let's take a more common example. If a man kills someone he knows, is convicted of murder and goes to jail, his children will be affected by their father's crime. In school, they may be marginalized by other children or by teachers. They will also be marginalized by their neighbours who won't want to see them. These crimes have an impact on the convicted person's family, spouse and children.

The same is true when young people are convicted. Their parents, who will seek to rehabilitate them, may suffer consequences in their workplaces, in the family and in their relationships with their neighbours.

Is this a common phenomenon, or am I talking to you about something that doesn't exist? Do you receive requests for this? Is this a concern for you?