Evidence of meeting #10 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zealand.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Mr. Fortin, I've been given the information from the technical people here that it's the connection. There's not much we can do, because it's from New Zealand. We will try to be patient.
Ms. Armstrong, maybe speak a little more slowly so the interpreters can get it, and hopefully we won't have that gap.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
We could ask her to speak more slowly and perhaps even to speak in French. There would be no issues with interpretation anymore. It would be fair for everyone.
4:10 p.m.
Voices
Ha, ha!
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
That would be a nice try.
Maybe I can advise Ms. Armstrong to put your mike between your nose and your lips. They say that usually works better, so just raise—perfect.
4:10 p.m.
Senior Lecturer, Institute of Criminology, Victoria University of Wellington, As an Individual
I think the difference that we have in New Zealand is, because we define sex work as work, we can quite easily distinguish between human trafficking and sex work in the same way that we can distinguish between any form of work and human trafficking.
As we know, human trafficking can occur in the context of any form of work. As Dr. Abel noted, we haven't had cases of human trafficking in New Zealand. We have protections through our human trafficking legislation that also protect against young people being exploited in the context of sex work. As Dr. Abel noted, there have been convictions in that regard.
Our main concern in New Zealand currently, for those of us who would like to see sex workers being safer and being better protected, is section 19 of the Prostitution Reform Act. That means that people who are here from other countries are working illegally. It makes it very difficult for people to report if they are being exploited. To better protect against human trafficking, repealing section 19 would be really important.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you to the witness. I gave you additional time for the time we had to pause for technical difficulties.
It's over to you, Mr. Fortin, for six minutes.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I think the two witnesses from New Zealand have provided really informative testimony.
I would like to thank the witnesses, who are on the other side of the world, for taking the time to participate in our committee's work this early. It is 8:15 a.m. in New Zealand.
I am interested in the situation in New Zealand when it comes to sex work because that country's laws are a bit different from those that apply here, in Canada.
Ms. Abel and Ms. Armstrong, you probably noted there were differences in legislation when listening to the other witnesses.
I would like to have your observations on this, and I would like Ms. Abel to answer me first.
Ms. Abel, you have experience in research in the sex work area in New Zealand, and you are getting a glimpse of what is happening here, in Canada.
Why do you think many stakeholders here, in Canada, both from the sex work area and the health care community, are advocating for keeping the current Nordic model rather than choosing to decriminalize sex work?
What do you think explains that difference in the two countries' approaches?
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
The question is either for Dr. Abel or Dr. Armstrong. Is that correct?
4:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Population Health, University of Otago, As an Individual
I'm sorry I only heard the French.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
On the bottom of your screen there's an ability to switch the translation. Are you able to switch it to English?
4:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Population Health, University of Otago, As an Individual
Yes, I've switched it to English.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Okay, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Abel, I want to begin by thanking you for joining us today. It is early where you are.
I was saying that Canadian witnesses have shared their preference for the Nordic model, our current model.
A number of people have expressed concern about decriminalization, while others think that solution should be prioritized.
I would like to know your point of view on this.
What do you think may be behind those concerns about decriminalization and the preference for maintaining the current model in Canada, the Nordic model?
4:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Population Health, University of Otago, As an Individual
Thank you.
The people who advocate for the Nordic model, their voices have been sometimes privileged in debates. I'm not sure why. It's in various countries though that those voices seem to be put above the empirical evidence. It would be nice to think that evidence does inform policy, but it doesn't in many countries around the world in terms of sex work.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
If I understand correctly, at the end of the day, you don't see any benefits to the Nordic model.
Do you think decriminalization is really the best or even the only way to address the issue?
4:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Population Health, University of Otago, As an Individual
Yes, I do feel it's the best way to go. If you look at the research coming out of Canada, as well as all of the other Nordic countries, it shows that sex workers are still going underground. They do want to continue working. There's [Technical difficulty—Editor]. It hasn't decreased [Technical difficulty—Editor]. Sex workers are actually worse off in trying to protect their clients.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
If Canada decided to go with decriminalization and to adopt a model similar to what you have in New Zealand, what would be your recommendations?
Should we still regulate sex work to some extent or should we open it up completely?
What kind of oversight could you recommend?
4:15 p.m.
Professor, Department of Population Health, University of Otago, As an Individual
In New Zealand, we have the Prostitution Reform Act. It wasn't just a matter of scrapping all the laws that decriminalize sex workers. There are protections built into the Prostitution Reform Act that I think are very good ones to have, in terms of the ability to change their mind and break a contract if something goes wrong. Just because they've consented at the beginning to do an act doesn't mean that they can't refuse later.
There are certain points within the act [Technical difficulty—Editor] workers and do not have the traditional stand-down period if they decide to leave sex work before they can draw the [Technical difficulty—Editor] section of the act. However, what I would do differently is not have section 19 because it causes significant harms to migrant sex workers. They are underground still in New Zealand because it's the only job that's singled out that they're not allowed to do on a work visa. We know that there's exploitation among migrant sex workers, and they don't report it to the police because they don't want to be deported.
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Earlier, your colleague Ms. Armstrong, or another witness, told us that a distinction was made between sex work and human trafficking in New Zealand, and that those were two different things. Obviously, that is easy for us to understand.
That witness added that you were doing a good job of protecting young people and sex workers to prevent them from becoming victims of human trafficking.
I would like you to tell me a bit about those protection measures.
How are you ensuring to properly protect the population against human trafficking?
4:20 p.m.
Professor, Department of Population Health, University of Otago, As an Individual
We've never had a case of trafficking of people into New Zealand. The only trafficking cases that have come up concern those who are under 18 years of age. Under the Prostitution Reform Act, under 18s are not criminalized, but anybody who tries to... .A client, or a brothel operator who employs somebody under the age of 18, or anybody who facilitates [Technical difficulty—Editor] is subject to criminal laws.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I would like you to tell me in a few words what sanctions you have imposed.
Mr. Chair, is my time up?
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.
Next, we have Mr. Garrison, for six minutes.