Justice Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for appearing today.

During these hearings, we have often heard of the dire effects that might take place if we repeal PCEPA and its prohibitions. Usually, those are described as an increase in demand in the sex industry, an increase in violence, an increase in exploitation, and an increase in crimes against children.

Despite the fact we haven't seen that in the areas in Canada where the law is not being enforced, I want to ask our witnesses from New Zealand—again, I know they've touched on this very clearly—did you see any of these supposed inevitable outcomes of decriminalization in New Zealand?

I'll start with Dr. Armstrong.

[Dr. Lynzi Armstrong]

Based on everything I have observed, read, and heard in the years I have been doing research on sex work, I certainly have not observed those outcomes. If anything, people who I have interviewed for my research, when asked, “What do you wish could change?”, often said, “I would like more clients. I'm not actually getting enough business.”

The suggestion that there's been this huge increase in demand does not translate from what I've heard from sex workers at all. If anything, people said they would like more business.

In terms of violence, again, I haven't observed anything that would suggest there have been increases in violence. The sex workers I've interviewed said, “The legislation is really helpful, because clients know I have these rights, and if they mistreat me, I have the ability to challenge that.”

So, no, absolutely not, I haven't observed any of those outcomes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

As someone who has spent quite a bit of time in New Zealand, there's often a stereotype of New Zealand as an isolated country. That kind of ignores the very large tourism industry that already exists in New Zealand.

I wonder if you have any comments on those kinds of perceptions of New Zealand, as being isolated and people not actually going there.

[Dr. Lynzi Armstrong]

I think there's a real stereotype there, where we're seen as being this kind of isolated place in the middle of nowhere. However, as you said, we have a huge movement of people coming in and out of New Zealand, certainly before the pandemic. The past years have been a bit different, because our border has been closed. But, no, we're absolutely not isolated. We do have a lot of people moving in and out across our border during normal times.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Dr. Abel, on the question of the increased demand, increased violence, increased exploitation, and increased crimes against children, have you seen any of these impacts of decriminalization in your research in New Zealand?

[Dr. Gillian Abel]

No, quite the contrary. [Technical difficulty—Editor] prior to decriminalization, and definitely, it's a completely different industry now. There were some members of parliament who were concerned about that before decriminalization, and therefore, voted against it. As I said before, they have now said to us that their concerns were really unfounded.

With this right comes the ability to create a safer environment. People know they can't do things with impunity, that sex workers are very well aware of their rights. They utilize those rights, so it has made it a much safer place.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much. I'll turn to Ms. Guo.

You said that, personally, you hadn't seen a lot of change after the enactment of PCEPA, but I wonder if that reflects the experiences of others you know who are involved in sex work.

Has the provision of limiting public places where sex workers can operate made work more dangerous? Has the restriction on advertising made communication less easy, and therefore, more dangerous?

[Nadia Guo]

In public places no, because every sex worker I know advertises online, so that's not really an issue. On advertising, I've heard claims that you can't be as explicit and can't list your rates, but that really hasn't reflected my experience or the experience of other people I know. While third parties are prohibited from publishing our ads, they still do so anyway. There's a lot of money in it, and it has continued just the way it was before the laws.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I have one minute. I want to go back to Professor Benedet, whose testimony I very much appreciate. I understand, Professor Benedet, where you're coming from, but my question to you really is, do you think it is possible, using the law, to actually eliminate demand for sex work?

[Prof. Janine Benedet]

I think it's necessary to have a law that declares this behaviour to be criminal and not to normalize it. I don't think it's possible to use the criminal law to eliminate sexual assault. I don't think it's possible to use the criminal law to eliminate domestic assault, coercive control or any of those behaviours. However, I think it is necessary to denounce those behaviours [Technical difficulty—Editor] and discriminatory against women.

No one should expect the criminal law to completely eliminate any behaviour. We don't eliminate homicide by criminalizing it and giving people a life sentence. It's simply a necessary tool in the tool kit. Once you take that away and say it's absolutely fine to buy a woman for sex, you've normalized that behaviour. It's no longer sexual harassment. It's no longer a practice of sex discrimination.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Benedet.

Next is Mr. Morrison for five minutes.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses today for coming here, especially those from New Zealand. Thank you for participating.

My question is for Ms. Quinn. It was interesting and important for the committee to hear your research on the individuals who have been sexually exploited, especially in the Edmonton area.

I'm wondering, given the work you've done, what you feel about the demand. You talked a bit about the demand and where that demand correlates with younger children. Is that what's happening in Edmonton, or is it more about adult women? Who is being exploited? When you did your research, what did that focus on?

[Kathleen Quinn]

There is a demand for children. We've had recent arrests in the past six months of young people who lured, groomed, recruited and sold children, so the demand is always there for young people. The majority are from 18 to 30 years old. Again, we see boyfriends selling girlfriends. We see a number of people posting their own ads. However, we have to acknowledge that children and young people are the target.

We also have to acknowledge that, in general, violence against women has not decreased in Alberta or in Canada and that this is also reflected in the sex industry. I think what we have noticed is that prior to PCEPA, in Edmonton we had over 41 women and transgender persons murdered between 1986 and 2014, with only 11 murders solved. Since PCEPA, we have had two young women murdered. Both were killed. One was strangled by a sex-trade buyer. She was a young woman from Quebec who had come to Edmonton. The other was murdered in a hotel.

We do have a strong relationship with police and community agencies, and there has been more reporting of violence. We have a specialized victim service unit, and we have worked very hard to build trust among people to know they can report violence. We will walk with them through reporting to police. We will walk with them through the traumatizing criminal justice system. We will help them with everything they need. I think these are critical factors to have in place and as part of what is working well in Edmonton.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you so much for that good explanation.

Professor Benedet, we asked one witness who came before us what it would be like if PCEPA was repealed, and the one-word answer was “horrible”. I know you were asked that question a minute ago. We have a fairly large border with the U.S., and if we legalize prostitution in Canada, what damage that would do is a bit different from that in some of the other countries we've talked about. I wonder if you could briefly give me what you think would happen if we repealed PCEPA.

[Prof. Janine Benedet]

Well, I suppose three things would happen. The first is I'm quite convinced that the demand for prostitution would increase, both domestically and from men in other jurisdictions who will travel to Canada to take advantage of that market. We certainly see that in other jurisdictions in Europe, where buyers do move to locations where prostitution is legal. In terms of child prostitution, I think it's important to recognize that if you decriminalize the purchase of adult women for sex, it is then open to any man who is charged with purchasing a child to argue that he honestly believed that the girl was 18 years of age or older; that becomes a defence. Now with the way it is structured, even if that defence is successful, there's an [Technical difficulty—Editor] an adult, and you can be convicted of an attempt to do that, so it does have significant impacts in terms of child prostitution. The third thing that's so often overlooked in this is the effect that it has on the equality of women generally. [Technical difficulty—Editor] at the brothel, when going out to the brothel becomes just another form of entertainment for men, when billboards can openly advertise [Technical difficulty—Editor] it says something about the condition of women and in this case, Canadian women, in society. My view is that all women are harmed by an environment that does that.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

For five minutes we have Madam Diab.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to ask—and I'm not sure if the committee has them—before the time is up, Dr. Abel and Dr. Armstrong, if you can send the committee your research or any notes that you have not sent. I don't believe I've seen them, but if they haven't been sent, would you please send those to us this week? We're about to wrap up this study.

Nadia Guo, you have spoken about how you personally have not seen any difference between things before PCEPA and after PCEPA, but I'd like to ask for your recommendations to us as a committee. We've heard from a number of witnesses that sex workers are victims and need to be saved or that they're exploited or so on. From your perspective, please give me your comments on that. What recommendations do you have for us?

[Nadia Guo]

I'm a bit hesitant about the full-blown commercialization of sex work in Canada. I know in some jurisdictions, like Spain, for instance, there have been increases in sex trafficking. However, I think it's important that we recognize that people do do this consensually and that we're adults and can make that choice for ourselves. If it were up to me, I would repeal all of PCEPA because the legislative history, the preamble and the internal logic of the bill are based on the premise that people can't consent to selling their sexual services, which I believe is wrong. I do recognize the importance of maybe having replacement laws that, for example, might keep the procuring section in place. I understand that it's difficult sometimes to prove sex trafficking under the sex trafficking provisions. For the material benefits section, I think the exceptions right now are pretty good, and the way they've been interpreted in the N.S. case at the Ontario Court of Appeal made sense to me.

I struggle with it, because I do understand that while I worked for myself and found it pretty easy to do so, other sex workers might benefit from having management handle their bookings and advertising and focus only on meeting clients. I don't really know. I struggle with it. I struggle with whether or not the material benefits section should stay or not.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Ms. Guo, would you mind answering this question for me? What, in your opinion, makes a person join the industry? How does somebody enter the sex work industry?

[Nadia Guo]

It's for many different reasons.

Personally, I was curious about it. I wanted to explore my sexuality and I wanted to see what it was like. Obviously, there was also the money, because you can make a lot of money in a very short period of time. You can control your own hours. You can have total control over your working conditions, which was not the case, for example, when I was articling.

During my articling, I made a fraction of the amount of money I made in sex work. On top of that, the conditions weren't great. I experienced sexual harassment continuously in the beginning of my articling, and that wasn't something I could say happened during sex work.

What makes people enter it is the flexibility, the independence and the ability to—

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you for that. I appreciate your being candid.

Dr. Abel or Dr. Armstrong, I'd like to ask you a question from the research you've done and from the extensive experience you have. You've clearly indicated that decriminalization will result in healthier and safer sex workers. Will you please share any work you have with the committee?

Can you comment on the harassment from the public and the stigma of sex workers pre- and post-decriminalization, based on your understanding from any research you have done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Dr. Abel, since we're out of time I'm going to ask if you could submit that answer in writing to the clerk. We'll have your answer included in the report in that manner.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you to all of you for attending.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Madam Diab.

Thank you to all members.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are in attendance here today.

We now will be suspending this meeting as it goes to an in camera meeting.