Justice Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Sheryl Saperia]

That is a very good question, and it's a very salient one right now.

There's a lot of research being done to understand where the funding is coming from. There is a wide acceptance that the protests from the beginning were much too organized and much too well-funded to be these organic, spontaneous, local demonstrations. That is something that, hopefully, in the coming weeks and months we will have a great deal of research on.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Very good.

I noted that you mentioned some of the extremist groups and the IRGC that need to be added to the list of designated terrorists in Canada. I think the Toronto Police Service recommendation contained that as well. I would ask if both of you could submit to the clerk the list of those organizations that you believe should be added. That would be great.

I'm going to turn to Mr. Miller and talk about the universities in Canada.

It seems to me that all of them have codes of conduct and that students can be censured. Are they enforcing their codes of conduct or are the protests that happen on campuses actually not students but other actors?

[Gabriel Miller]

Through you, Madam Chair, thank you very much for the question.

To start, I think it's important to say that what we've been hearing in our conversations with Jewish students and leaders in the past several weeks is how important it is that these codes of conduct be enforced in a way that's equal to all groups and provides protection to all groups, including, of course, members of our Jewish community. That's the message that's being delivered by the community to our university leaders. Universities are using all of their policies, including codes of conduct, to ensure that the proper standards are upheld, but of course, there is a lot of work to do. We've seen examples, I think, where, clearly, we're letting our Jewish students and faculty down, and there's a great deal of work to do to improve our performance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We will continue with Mr. Mendicino for six minutes, please.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses for attending this morning.

This committee has heard disturbing evidence from Jewish Canadians from just about every generation going back to the post-Second World War period. Their testimony is clear and consistent: Jews are being targeted at every turn—students, professors, professionals, business owners, public servants, union members, faith leaders, families.

Just last weekend there was the shooting at Bias Chaya Mushka, a Jewish day school for girls in North York, in my hometown of Toronto. That is another horrifying incident to add to the record levels of anti-Semitic violence against Jews as documented by B'nai Brith.

Imagine having to send your daughter off to school this morning knowing there are people who want to attack her, and all you want to do is assure her she's going to be safe. How can Jews feel safe when laws aren't enforced? When encampments go on for weeks without consequence, or, as in the case of Adil Charkaoui in Montreal, who explicitly demonized Zionists and incited violence without facing charges, Jews can't feel safe. They don't feel safe, and the consequences are real. There are more unlawful protests, more violence, more Jew hatred. This study has to be a call to action for all Canadians to put on our gear, pick up a hose and extinguish the five-alarm fire that is anti-Semitism in this country.

This morning, I want to focus on a written submission from Canadian Women Against Antisemitism. This is a grassroots organization in Toronto. Their written submission explains in vivid detail the impacts of anti-Semitism on Jewish women. They make two key points: first, the word “Zionist” has been misappropriated and perverted as a racist trope against Jews; and second, sexual violence against women and girls is explicitly being coupled with Jewish hatred.

We see this specifically at university encampments, where there are repeated denials of the rape and torture of women by Hamas, along with chants like, “Long live October 7,” glorifying terrorism, and, by extension, the violence done to women on that day. The submission even makes reference to a six-year-old girl who was told that she should be raped by Hitler and that all Jews should die.

Mr. Sandler, you're an expert in criminal law, but you don't have to be an expert to conclude these are prima facie examples of hate speech. Am I correct about that?

[Mark Sandler]

You're absolutely correct.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Any student on any campus alleged to have uttered such hate speech warrants, at a minimum, an investigation by universities under their respective codes of conduct. Would you agree with that?

[Mark Sandler]

Absolutely.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

To your knowledge, has any student been the subject of a disciplinary investigation warranting their expulsion to date?

[Mark Sandler]

I'm unaware of very much activity on this front at all, frankly, and I'm aware of many instances where no action has been taken.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Indeed, so am I, and we've heard it from Jewish students themselves.

My next question is for Mr. Miller.

On behalf of Universities Canada, can you inform members of this committee whether or not any disciplinary proceedings have been commenced on the grounds that students have committed some of the hate speech we've heard directly from Jewish students themselves?

[Gabriel Miller]

I want to start by echoing your message that the kind of language and behaviour you're describing is absolutely intolerable and offensive and needs to be eradicated. We need to work much harder to protect—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I appreciate the expression of solidarity.

My question is whether or not any disciplinary proceedings have been commenced thus far.

[Gabriel Miller]

I would be happy to follow up with the committee with specific examples. I know universities are working with their codes of conduct. What they've heard from Jewish students and faculty is that these codes of conduct need to be applied more equally so that they protect all members of the community, and there's certainly more work to do there.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Sandler, I see that you would like to come back.

[Mark Sandler]

I don't want to ignore the fact we have radicalized professors and faculty and would not simply focus on students. There's jurisprudence that makes it clear that, even in the absence of proof of a hate crime, we are to be able to deal in a disciplinary manner with faculty who are creating a poisoned environment in their classrooms.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I wholeheartedly agree. We heard from Dr. Rosenberg just last week, who was previously a teacher at the University of British Columbia's faculty of medicine. He resigned despite the fact he had raised repeatedly his concerns around that kind of toxic indoctrination which we're seeing not only on his campus but right across the country.

In addition to that, Mr. Sandler, you also have experience, as I said, in the criminal justice system. There are many tools that are available to law enforcement. We heard from Toronto Police Service this morning that, as part of an action plan, we need to see more training of police, prosecutors and members of the judiciary.

Do you agree with that, and can you expand?

[Mark Sandler]

Not only do I agree with that, but what I am seeing is an inconsistent application of the law right across the country. I'm seeing underutilization of various sections of the Criminal Code that do exist and that I have identified. I've also seen the absence of designated prosecutors to deal with these crimes so that you're actually having internal disagreement within Crown services about what is prosecutable and what is not. We need a national approach that understands anti-Semitism, understands the criminal law tools that are available to deal with it and applies across the country.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you. I have less than 10 seconds.

Is it concerning to you that, when individuals who have an interest in seeing these encampments taken down bring applications before the courts for injunctions, they are being denied?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We will wait for that response at the next question.

Thank you very much.

We'll continue with Mr. Fortin for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us this morning. This is an important topic that everyone is concerned about, and their insights can only shed more light for us as we look for solutions.

My questions are for Deputy Chief Johnson, but Detective Sergeant Bisla will probably be able to answer them, as well.

You talked about four recommendations. I like that approach of trying to deal with the situation. There are some obvious things, such as training. Of course, I agree and I find it quite obvious. You also talked about the definition of “hate crime”. I must say that this is a subject that concerns me. I don't know whether one of you could answer my question.

What suggestion would you have to develop a definition that would be useful, effective and clear? I'm sure you've given this some thought.

Mr. Johnson, would you like to answer the question?

[D/Chief Robert Johnson]

I'll start, and then maybe Kiran can jump in.

I think the issue is twofold. It's internally with police organizations and police officers, and then more importantly with community because of misinformation and lack of information. This is a complicated issue. In my recommendation I mentioned the importance of consultation with community because I think this is a bit of a moving target and may be addressed through some regulation so it can be more easily changed as things evolve.

Kiran, would you like to speak to specifics?

[Det Sgt Kiran Bisla]

Yes. I know there are discussions and Toronto Police Service is part of those discussions with respect to creating a standardized definition that all police services can refer to. It's not standardized at this point, but as part of our work with the RCMP and the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, we are working together with police services to ensure that we have a standard definition.

At this time, the definition of a hate crime is a criminal offence committed against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by the offender's real or perceived bias, prejudice or hate. The key is the intentional selection of the victim based on their identifiable crew.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Bisla.

In your opinion, should all forms of hate be treated equally, or should more special consideration be given to antisemitism or Islamophobia, for example? Should specific treatment be reserved for these forms of hate, or should any hate speech or any form of hatred be dealt with in the same way?

[Det Sgt Kiran Bisla]

The law addresses hate in a number of ways in the Criminal Code. There are provisions that speak to anti-Semitism specifically under the hate propaganda legislation.