Justice Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I ask that all comments be through the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

That's well taken. Yes, the comments can come through me. Thank you.

Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That wasn't a point of order, through you, Madam Chair.

In any event, as I was indicating, because Justin Trudeau and his Liberal government cannot take a firm stand one way or the other, he's using this to score cheap political points by dispatching members who are supportive of the Israeli regime and members who are opposed to it and citing their support with terrorists and—

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I have a point of order. I take real issue with that last comment by Mr. Brock. I find it deeply offensive for him to be attributing support or non-support over here, when he knows it's wrong.

If you want to be the person who is constantly on the attack, please do so. However, I encourage you to be accurate and use facts. Don't accuse people of things you know are false.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Madam Chair, again, that wasn't a point of order.

Nevertheless, I haven't said one false thing yet, and I stand by my comments. That's exactly what the Prime Minister has done and continues to do.

I note the time. Several of my colleagues wish to have further interventions, so I'm prepared to cede my time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Mr. Housefather, did you have...?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Am I next?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Actually, I have Mr. Van Popta and then you.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay. Well, I'll wait until Mr. Van Popta has spoken.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Okay.

Mr. Van Popta.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The motion before us is to extend by 30 days the study on Bill C-270, the stopping internet sexual exploitation act.

I have to ask myself why we need that extension. This bill has been with us since May 8. Madam Chair, I think that's the date you said earlier in today's discussion. Now it's October 31. What has taken so long?

Mr. Brock said earlier that we've been ready for weeks to go ahead with the commencement of the study of this very important legislation. I think it was at a meeting probably two weeks ago that it was.... It must have been a Thursday, because it was suggested that perhaps we could have witnesses at our committee meeting on Monday, just a few days later. I believe that the clerk was absolutely accurate when he said that didn't give us enough time to get headsets out to the witnesses. Some of them were going to come in by video conference, and that would take a bit more time.

I'm just an ordinary member of this committee, so I wasn't part of the organizing of events and the schedule for this fall session, but I had expected that those witnesses would be here on the Thursday. That would have given us enough time to get whatever materials out to them and to get them prepared. Instead, what were we doing on that Thursday? We were writing the anti-Semitism report. This was all done in camera so I need to be careful about what I say about those two studies, but we were studying anti-Semitism, and we were studying Islamophobia.

That goes back to the spring of this year, when a motion was put forward that this committee should study anti-Semitism and its rise in Canada, particularly at Canadian universities. I agree that's a very important study. We all agreed with that, and we wanted to move forward. Then it became complicated when there was another motion put forward to also study Islamophobia, which was also a very important study. We suggested that maybe that could be put off for a later time, but it was decided that we were going to study those two issues at the same time, not as one study, but as two separate studies. That was all on the public record, so I can say that.

We had witnesses come in on those two studies, again all on the public record. I'm very impressed with the courage of the witnesses who came forward and spoke very openly about the issues that were facing them, whether it was on the Islamophobia study or on the anti-Semitism study. They came here and gave testimony. It was very heartfelt. We all realized that these are issues that are front and centre for Canada, and that we need to deal with them.

Over the summer months.... I think we had six meetings over six days, three on anti-Semitism and three on Islamophobia. We heard from many witnesses, and then over the summer months the analysts spent some time preparing the draft reports.

We came back in September, and these reports are in front of us.

Madam Chair, until now, we are still drafting those reports. I can't believe how long it is taking to do that. Part of the problem is that on the Liberal side of this committee, it's a different bench depending on whether it's the Islamophobia study or the anti-Semitism study. It is clear to us on this side of the table that those two groups are not talking with each other and that there's conflict in the Liberal caucus about these two very important issues. That's what's been dragging things on and on.

Again, I need to be careful about what I say, because this is all being done in camera. We on this side of the table are trying our best to produce these two reports, so that they can be made public and we can talk about them publicly.

I had expected that was what we were going to be doing today. We were so close on the anti-Semitism report. I think with just a little more discussion, we're going to get them done. That's why I supported the dilatory motion of my colleague, Mr. Brock, to go forward with finalizing that study, and believed that the next day we could go ahead and finalize the Islamophobia study.

Now things are just dragging on and on, not through any fault of ours on this side of the table. We've been doing our best to move these two issues forward.

I think it would be very useful to this committee and to this Parliament if the members of the Liberal Party would talk with each other about these two important issues and resolve the conflicts amongst themselves so that we can go on and get these two studies finished.

I am prepared to go ahead with studying Bill C-270. I've read some of the major speeches that were given in the House at second reading. I'm not really familiar with these issues, and that's why I'm very anxious to delve into the study. However, when reading those speeches, I read about some of the very heartfelt testimony that has been given by witnesses who are victims of pornography. These are usually young girls who are being victimized by owners of porn sites, who are making a lot of money from these poor victims. I think that we need to get on with that study, and I think it is such a shame that the Liberal members of this committee are trying to politicize it.

I, too, would love to hear from Mr. Viersen, to hear what he has to say. However, when I read these tweets from Mr. Maloney, I can't blame Mr. Viersen for being reluctant to come here. He wants to come here to give testimony about the issues that are important. He wants to talk about the matters of Bill C-270, and it is clear that the Liberal members of the House want to talk about something else when he is here. I think that is just unacceptable.

Madam Chair, I think that it is time to move forward on all three of these studies. Let's get the anti-Semitism study done. I think we still have time today. If the Liberals would reconsider the motion of my colleague, Mr. Brock, to go ahead and finish that study, we can then go into an in camera session, and we can finish off that study.

Let's proceed with the other witnesses on Bill C-270. Let's move forward with that, regardless of whether or not Mr. Viersen is going to come here. There are a lot of good witnesses we should hear from. I think it would be best if Mr. Viersen were here, but it's not necessary. We can proceed without him, and I think that's exactly what we should do.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

There are two things. The first is that the clerk has never received any names of witnesses, so if you have any, send them over.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

All right. We will do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

The second is that I have requested to see if we have extra resources to sit until 15 minutes prior to question period today, so I'll ask them.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Before I cede the floor, I have just one quick question.

Is there enough time for us to get witnesses on Bill C-270 for at least one day, for one meeting? Is there enough time for that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Let me get back to you on that.

I have a long list, but as I said, I've requested to see if we have.... Because the anti-Semitism report is almost done, I really would like to get back to it and move....

However, I have a speaking list, and I'll just read you the names for everybody: Housefather, Maloney, MacGregor, Dabrusin, Ferreri and Lantsman.

Mr. Housefather, the floor is yours.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I am going to speak for one second, but my name has come up multiple times.

First, we've heard about deflection. What we're actually deflecting is the fact that Monday is the last day to extend the ability for this committee to study a bill that is a Conservative bill whose sponsor has refused to appear so far. He has been invited to appear, and he hasn't come. Without extending that, the committee will not be able to properly study the bill.

Then the Conservatives are continuing to talk and not allow us to move to the anti-Semitism study. It's not the Liberals, NDP or Bloc who are talking. It's Conservatives who are refusing to vote to extend their own private member's bill for 30 days for the committee to study. It makes no sense.

The anti-Semitism study was my motion. We strongly support it. We all want to get to the anti-Semitism study.

I just want to note, in response to my friend, Mr. Brock, that I am not an Israeli. I am a Jewish Canadian. There is a very big difference between being a Jewish Canadian and being an Israeli. I strongly support the State of Israel, but I'm not an Israeli. I just want everybody to use the right lexicon.

However, I appreciate my friends on the Conservative side. We've worked really well together so far on this anti-Semitism study. Let's go to the study. I think we all want to do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

There's still a motion on the floor.

Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

My tweet seems to have evoked a reaction from the opposite side.

I want to respond to Mr. Brock.

I can assure you that what you hear from me or see from me in print are my own views and thoughts, and if you think that I take direction from the PMO, I would encourage you to go talk to them—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thanks for the invite.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

—and ask them how well James Maloney responds to direction. I'll leave that there.

Let's be clear here, on the other side what I'm hearing is we want to deal with the anti-Semitism study and get it behind us, and we want to deal with Bill C-270. We could have been finished the anti-Semitism report about half an hour ago if they had just voted yes to the motion, which is to do the second part of what they say they want to do. I don't know whether it's hypocritical or ironic or both. It's absurd, what I'm hearing from the other side.

What I heard from Mr. Brock was that the person who introduced this private member's bill gave him a list of witnesses, which I now have to assume means his own name isn't on it.

As for the contents of my tweet, I did not raise this issue. Mr. Viersen did. This is not a break-the-glass scenario, Mr. Brock. The issue is in the public and being discussed because Mr. Viersen raised it. Full stop.

If you guys are serious over there and you want to deal with the anti-Semitism issue and you want to deal with this report, there's a really simple way to do it: Vote yes to my motion, and we can use the remainder of the time we have today to deal with it.

For the record, I'm prepared to come back here after question period and listen to you talk all afternoon if your intention is to just delay and delay, because my goal is to get back to that study, get it completed as quickly as possible and get this bill before this committee so we can do our job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

We have services until 45 past, meaning 15 minutes before question period today, if that is the will of the committee. I really would like to finish the anti-Semitism report, because it's done. There's just finishing it up. I leave that to the members. I'm simply the chair.

I now go to Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

My intervention will be very brief.

The only people who are preventing us from concluding the anti-Semitism study right now are the Conservatives. Let's just get that very clear. We could be done right now if we just simply brought this matter to a vote. We are dealing with a timeline issue. We need to study Mr. Viersen's bill at this committee. It's been delayed for one reason or another, but that's beside the point. We need the extra time to call witnesses. It doesn't have to be Mr. Viersen; it can be other witnesses, but we also need the time for clause-by-clause review of the bill before we report it back to the House.

There's a very easy solution, Madam Chair. If the Conservatives stop speaking and allow us to vote on this very simple and reasonable extension, we can do two things I've heard them arguing for. We can get back to the anti-Semitism study, and we can study Mr. Viersen's bill.

The power is in their hands, Madam Chair. I'll let the public judge as to whether they're going to do that or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Ms. Dabrusin.