Evidence of meeting #121 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consent.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
We can resume. To those who are virtual, we have resumed.
Mr. Brock, were you continuing?
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Yes. I'm mindful of the hour, Madam Chair. While I have probably another 100 pages of material to read out and emphasize to make my point, I'm also mindful of the fact that I have to be at a subcommittee meeting at 5:30. Therefore, at this juncture, I am going to cede my time, but I'd like to be placed back on the speaking list, please. I'll be returning between a quarter to six and six o'clock, and I will be subbed out in the interim.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you, Mr. Brock.
We will now continue with you, Mr. Fortin. Thank you very much for your patience.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
We've been trying for I don't know how many hours to debate Bill C‑270. It's been going on for a few days now. This is an important bill.
I listen to my Conservative colleagues, for whom I have a lot of respect, and my Liberal colleagues, for whom I also have a lot of respect, and I'm stunned. It's mind-boggling. Both sides say there are victims, and I agree. Mr. Brock has just come back to the poignant testimonies of young people who are victims of pornography. We're talking here about people under 18 appearing in photos or videos circulating on the net. We, the parliamentarians elected by the general public, could solve the problem. We agree on this and we know how to solve this problem. Mr. Viersen has tabled a bill. Each of us might want to propose certain amendments to it, when the time comes, but we all agree that this problem needs to be resolved.
I don't know how to describe our attitude. I say “our” attitude as a committee, because that includes me. I don't want to blame anyone, but it just doesn't make sense. The only reason for dithering and filibustering on this bill is that Mr. Viersen is against abortion. Everyone knows this, both in Parliament and across the country. Mr. Viersen makes no secret of it. He has given press conferences on the subject. Is he right or wrong? I have my opinion on that, but I don't think it's relevant to this bill.
On the one hand, the Conservatives don't want Mr. Viersen to testify, because they suspect the Liberals will ask him about abortion. So they are systematically obstructing him. They say he won't be heard and that another witness should be called. On the other hand, since the Liberals want to boost their election campaign by saying that Mr. Viersen is anti-abortion, they insist that he testify. So we're at war over whether or not Mr. Viersen will come to support his bill.
However, this is immaterial to us. If the victims whose testimonies Mr. Brock has been recounting were sitting here, they'd be discouraged to see us acting this way. They'd be reminding us how messed up they are and how much they need our help, when all we can do is argue about whether or not Mr. Viersen will testify. Couldn't we declare a truce, agree to pass this bill, after which we'll have plenty of time to quibble?
I'm sure no one in Canada is going to vote differently in the next election because Mr. Viersen will have come here to testify. He's going to say he's against abortion, that's for sure. He's said it in every forum. He's not going to change his mind, he's going to repeat it. What will that change? The Conservatives won't be any less well represented or any different in the next election campaign. For their part, the Liberals have nothing to gain. We know as well as anyone that Mr. Viersen is against abortion. It's all over the media. Just recently, I read a few reports about it.
What's distressing, however, is that there are victims, young people under 18 who appear in pornographic videos circulating on the web. We all agree that this makes no sense. Yet it's simple: Bill C‑270 says that, before distributing a pornographic film or publishing such images, the distributor will have to make sure that the protagonists are of age, i.e., over 18, and consenting. I simply can't believe that we're going to continue to bicker for weeks on end, and that at the end of the day, we're going to tell these people that they're going to continue to be victims and that we're sorry, but that it's not our fault, because that's the way things are, all because we're being stubborn.
I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Quite frankly, I find the situation very unedifying. As I've already said, I have a great deal of respect for my colleagues who, on both sides, are now systematically obstructing this bill. I believe they are intelligent men and women. Most of us are professionals, and we're all aware that the way we're acting right now makes no sense whatsoever. Couldn't we make a little effort? For my part, I'm ready. I don't know if there's anything I can do, but if there is, I'm going to do it.
Please, let's spare a thought for these victims. Instead of using them by saying that Mr. Viersen would come and say this or that, or that he would think this or that, let's think about these victims and pass Bill C‑270.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Liberal
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Let me repeat. It's genuinely surprising. If Liberals spent hours filibustering a bill using victim testimonies, I'd be genuinely curious about what the Conservatives would say. I guess it's easier to do this job sometimes if you don't have any shame. It's been shocking to watch what the Conservatives are willing to do to prevent Mr. Viersen from testifying for an hour. It's not like he's coming for weeks and going to be grilled for weeks. Mr. Fortin is right. He goes on podcasts quite a bit, it seems. I'm sure he's been stopped recently from going on podcasts and shouting his views from the rooftops. That's great. That's why we're here. We talk about what we believe in. However, using victim testimonials to prevent Arnold Viersen from testifying is shocking.
We could have started this bill already. We could have Mr. Viersen come later. Perhaps there are some things going on. We can have him come later, at the end of the day. I noticed on his Facebook page that he was on a hunting trip last week. He's not busy, so why isn't he here? This is important to him. I know it is. I have been hearing him talk about issues like this since 2015. For nine years, he has wanted an opportunity to do this. It's probably from the leader's office, because it takes some organization to set up a filibuster over multiple meetings. Yet, here his colleagues are, continuing to prevent this.
As a side note, I hope that, when the online harms act comes up, there's the same willingness to listen to victims. I doubt there will be. I'm predicting we'll see filibusters on the other side when that comes forward and we are dealing with the issue.
I have tried to move a motion for unanimous consent, in order to get this study moving quicker. It was denied. I sent an amendment to the clerk. I will move an amendment to the motion at the end.
The whole motion will now read:
That the Committee request an extension of 30 sitting days to the period of Committee consideration for Bill C-270,
The amendment is:
and that the Committee invite the Minister of Justice to appear for one hour on the Supplementary Estimates (B) and reinvite Arnold Viersen to appear on the subject of C-270.
I think that's reasonable. Let's get on with business. Let's get Mr. Viersen here. Let's get the minister here. Let's get on with our job. I think Mr. Fortin is right. Let's do what we're here to do. Let's help the victims. Let's move things forward. I know Mr. Brock is shocked that questions may get asked of Mr. Viersen outside of the scope of something. I don't think I've ever seen a minister appear on the estimates where the questions were contained to the estimates, but let's keep things moving. Let's do what the committee is here to do. Let's get to work. Let's study this and also have the minister appear. You can ask him whatever you want on whatever topic you like, as is your right and as is the case. Let's keep this moving.
Thank you.
Liberal
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I'm requesting an addition. The amendment would be at the end of the motion. It would be, “and that the Committee invite the Minister of Justice to appear for one hour on the Supplementary Estimates (B) and reinvite Arnold Viersen to appear on the subject of Bill C-270.”
I sent it to the clerk.
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Members, that was sent to everybody's emails. Have you read it?
Can you confirm, please? I'll wait another minute if you like.
Mr. Bittle, are you asking for unanimous consent?
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
If it is given, I'm happy to receive it.
We can just stop talking and go to a vote. I think that would be the easiest way, but I doubt there will be unanimous consent on this.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
I see Ms. Ferreri.
I don't know if I heard Mr. MacGregor as well, but go ahead first, Ms. Ferreri.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
It's an interesting conversation to have. We're sitting in the justice committee, and I've heard my colleagues speak about the state of things. Mr. Brock spoke at length, reading victim testimony into the record, which I think is why we're all here. I really wanted to talk about some of the very disturbing stats that have increased over the time that our current Prime Minister took office.
I think if parents don't know what sextortion is, and if they're watching at home, I think this is a really important discussion that needs to be had at dinner tables. Our children are using cellphones at a rate that...never before. Many of our children will be considered the guinea pigs of a generation, and we don't actually know the consequences.
Sextortion, for folks who don't know, basically is where you are interacting with somebody online and they say to you, “Hey, send me a provocative photo.”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Ms. Ferreri, could I interrupt you?
Just to be clear, are you speaking to the amendment?
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Yes, of course. Well, obviously the amendment—
November 18th, 2024 / 5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
You're done? Okay.
I guess you were next on the list anyway, so....
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
That's right. That's what I thought we were doing.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's good to be back at the justice committee.
Just to clarify, do you have a new speaking list, or is it a continuation of the previous list?
