Justice Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We will now go to our six-minute round with MP MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining our committee once again.

I was looking through both your departmental plan and your organizational chart. In the organizational chart, you have reference to a war crimes program, and in the departmental plans there are commitments towards international co-operation on criminal justice. However, when it comes to the supplementary estimates, I don't see any reference to funding for both of these. I'm just curious. With everything that's going on around the world—with Russian aggression in Ukraine and what's happening in the Middle East and Africa—can you explain why no additional resources are being devoted to these very important programs if we're serious about standing up for Canadian values internationally?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor, for the question.

We've definitely worked on our international co-operation. We've definitely enhanced our collaboration, specifically in the context of the Ukraine conflict. There are Department of Justice employees who have been seconded to the International Criminal Court, for example. The RCMP is also assisting with investigations.

With respect to the actual numbers, I might defer to Bill Kroll or my deputy for the numbers dedicated to the war crimes unit.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'll get to him during the second round.

I have a direct question for you. With respect to what's happening in the West Bank, do the illegal Israeli settlements there constitute a war crime?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I think the Government of Canada's position is the same—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

This is a yes-or-no question, Minister. Is it a war crime or is it not?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

The West Bank is an occupied territory. The status of the settlements is that they are illegal at law. That has been Canada's position.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Is it a war crime? They're displacing the indigenous population, the Palestinians who used to live there. Is that a war crime?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

What I am telling you, Mr. MacGregor, is Canada's position. The investigation and the determination of a war crime are for an international tribunal. It's not for me to speculate.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay, but we are signatories to the Rome Statute.

You have seen recently that the International Criminal Court has issued an arrest warrant for both the Prime Minister of Israel and his former defence minister. When asked about that directly, both the Prime Minister and your colleague the Minister of Foreign Affairs stated that Canada will “abide by” the ruling.

What does “abide by” mean, Minister? You're the Minister of Justice. In plain English, what does it mean that Canada will “abide by” that ruling?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. MacGregor, I'll simply restate Canada's position. We are a rule-of-law country. We are signatories to the Rome Statute. We respect our institutions and their independence, including international institutions.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, but again, what does “abide by” mean? If the Prime Minister of Israel and his former defence minister were to set foot on Canadian soil, what would Canada do?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. MacGregor, I'm not going to speculate on future hypothetical situations. What I was—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm not asking you to speculate. Both your colleague and the Prime Minister were quite clear in saying “abide by”. I'm asking for a clear answer.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'm echoing exactly what Minister Joly and the Prime Minister said, which is that we are a rule-of-law country, that we are signatories to the Rome Statute and that we believe in international humanitarian law and the jurisdiction and independence of the ICC.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Minister, the ICC issued an arrest warrant for both the Prime Minister of Israel and the former defence minister for crimes against humanity and crimes committed since the Israel-Hamas war began more than a year ago. Both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs have said that they would abide by that ruling. You acknowledge that we are a signatory to the Rome Statute. You have been wavering in clearly committing an answer towards whether these illegal Israeli settlements constitute war crimes, and you're being equally evasive in stating, as the Minister of Justice, what Canada would do should both of these individuals set foot on Canadian soil. I think Canadians would like a clear answer from their Minister of Justice on this.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I dispute that characterization, Mr. MacGregor. What I'm indicating to you is that I don't answer hypotheticals.

I've indicated to you, as to the status of the West Bank, that the settlements are illegal in international law, and what I'll say to you is what we've frequently said, which is that we abide by international law and by international institutions. We respect their jurisdiction and their independence, and as a signatory of the Rome Statute, we will continue to do so.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand that it is a contravention of international law, Minister. However, again, we're talking about the West Bank, which is future land for a Palestinian state. It is acknowledged that these are Palestinian territories. These people are being forcibly removed. After, they are being prevented from returning because of the building of settlements.

Again, very clearly, does that action constitute a war crime, and would Canada hold those people responsible for that kind of conduct?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. MacGregor, I'm trying to assist you as best I can. The determination, ultimately, about what constitutes a war crime is for an international tribunal. That is not before me, and I'm not going to speculate about it. What I can say to you is that Canada's policy has been that the annexed territory of the West Bank is occupied territory and that the settlements themselves constitute illegal settlements. We've articulated that many times over the past many years.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Well, I'm going to push back on this. In your departmental plan, under the heading “International cooperation on criminal justice”, it says:

Justice Canada will continue to support Canada’s criminal justice priorities internationally, ensuring that Canadian values and approaches are considered in the development of international norms and standards on crime prevention and criminal justice, as well as on genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.

You're not even able to give a simple answer. What are Canada's values on those things? You can't even give me a clear answer on something that is very clearly happening in the West Bank at this moment. What are our values, if you as the minister are unable to provide a clear answer at this committee?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I again dispute your characterization, Mr. MacGregor.

Our values are that we should uphold our institutions, domestic and foreign, and should respect the rule of law and international humanitarian law. That is what we've always sought to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

We will now do the second and final round of five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Van Popta.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us today.

According to the departmental plan, the percentage of Canadians who have confidence that the Canadian criminal justice system is fair to all people stands at 50%. I find this shocking. How is it conducive to a strong, free and democratic society that half of us don't have confidence in our criminal justice system?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Well, to be frank, Mr. Van Popta, confidence in the criminal justice system gets undermined by two things. One is underinvestment in the system, particularly in building infrastructure and having the personnel to staff the system. Second, it's about people taking shots at and encouraging disrespect for our judiciary, including members of the Supreme Court of Canada. I've unfortunately seen that on repeated occasions from none other than the leader of the Conservative Party. I don't think that helps with the narrative about building up confidence in our institutions.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

People express concerns. We hear them all the time. Are you suggesting that those concerns aren't real? I'm thinking that maybe you don't believe them. Per a National Post article, you said, shortly after you were appointed to your current position, “‘I think that empirically it's unlikely’ that Canada is becoming less safe”. I think there's a sense, coming out of the pandemic, that people's safety is more in jeopardy. It's in their heads. Empirical evidence suggests otherwise.

I'm looking at a recent study from the Fraser Institute about our worsening public safety record compared to that of the United States. Since 2014, the rate of violent crime in Canada has surpassed that of the United States by 14%, and property crime here is exceeding the U.S. by 27%. Can you acknowledge that the subjective feelings Canadians have about our worsening public safety situation are not just in their heads but are backed up by empirical evidence?