Justice Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Minister of Justice]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and members of the committee.

I'll be presenting today key items from the 2024-25 supplementary estimates (B) for the Department of Justice. This funding will make a real difference for people in this country who interact with our justice system, including victims. These items fit into our government's broader plan to increase affordability, provide social supports and create a better Canada.

Access to justice is a top priority of mine. To this end, I've put considerable time and effort into filling judicial vacancies. I've appointed 178 judges since I became minister. During my first year alone, I appointed 137 judges. The previous annual record was 107. Right now more than 96% of the judicial positions across the country are filled.

A robust legal aid system is another key pillar of access to justice. I believe legal aid provides fair representation. It ensures the smooth functioning of the court process and ensures that cases are heard in a timely manner. This year's supplementary estimates (B) provide $80 million for criminal legal aid for provinces and territories and $71.6 million for immigration and refugee legal aid services. This funding will pave the way for greater access to justice for indigenous persons, for individuals from Black and other racialized communities and for those with mental health issues, all of whom are overrepresented in the criminal justice system.

If these supplementary estimates do not pass in Parliament, this critical support will be jeopardized. That needs to be understood by all committee members. Justice will not be served and people will suffer, particularly victims of crime. I know there are colleagues at this table who care about these issues, but I also know that some people may be instructed to oppose these measures.

To my Bloc and NDP colleagues, I think we know how some members will vote on these measures, including the official opposition. I'm looking to you to ensure that the estimates are able to come to a vote and pass.

I would like to point out other areas in which the supplementary estimates provide essential support for Canadians.

This will support the provision of legal advice and information to individuals who have been sexually harassed in their workplace. Sexual harassment is a scourge that disproportionately affects women. Statistics Canada tells us that one woman in four and one man in six have reported being victims of sexualized and inappropriate conduct in the workplace.

We also know that a large majority of incidents are not reported, which means that the real figures are probably higher. The $10.3 million in funding provided in these estimates would help to support people going through a traumatic time, in particular if they do not have the resources to pay for legal representation or if they are unaware of their rights.

The legal aid program would support access to free legal information and advice to anyone who believes they have been sexually harassed in the workplace. This is very important funding.

The official opposition asserts that they care about addressing gender-based violence. They are often very performative about it, but I expect that, yet again, they will follow their leader's instructions and vote against supporting victims of gender-based violence.

This funding dovetails with a concerted effort from our government to support women and curb sexual assault and gender-based violence. Gender-based violence is an epidemic in this country and it must stop.

This is why we passed laws requiring training for judges on sexual assault and intimate partner violence. I worked on it at this very committee. That was Bill C-3, which we called the Rona Ambrose law, from the 43rd Parliament.

We also strengthened the national sex offender registry with Bill S-12 in this Parliament and reformed publication ban laws to empower victims to tell their own stories. We toughened bail laws for intimate partner violence offenders in Bill C-75 and Bill C-48. We funded women's shelters and crisis hotlines so that victims are supported in their time of need. We will continue to do everything we can to end sexual harassment and gender-based violence in Canada. I'm proud that this funding will contribute to this very important goal.

The online harms act will concretely tackle online sexual violence. For the first time, we are mandating that online platforms do their part to keep people in Canada, especially children, safe online. We are ensuring that child sexual exploitation material and non-consensual intimate images, including deepfakes, are subject to a takedown order. Online platforms will no longer get a free pass for hosting vile content. Women and girls across Canada are being intimidated and harassed online. We've seen children pass by suicide because of online abuse.

Enough is clearly enough. In our increasingly online world, we do not have time to spare. We need to act intentionally. We need to pass Bill C-63.

I would now like to address another subject that is important to Canadians: protecting tenants. We know that housing is one of the main sources of stress for Canadians right now, and this is particularly true for tenants.

Rising rents, renovictions and the lack of opportunities when it comes to housing availability are pushing tenants to leave their communities. Tenants also face unique challenges when it comes to making sure that their housing is properly maintained and their landlord obeys provincial laws.

Tenants' rights and legal services organizations can help tenants work things out and overcome complex problems. Tenants facing threats to the security of their housing can feel especially powerless and alone.

This is why in budget 2024 our government proposed an investment of $50 million over five years to establish what we call a new tenant protection fund. Our government has made substantial advancements in housing. We know everyone deserves an affordable place to call home. Our housing accelerator fund is making a real difference in communities across Canada. It is very unfortunate that Conservative members of Parliament have been barred by their leader from accessing these funds for their communities. That's unfair, and it's certainly not leadership. The tenant protection fund is just one of many elements of these supplementary estimates that will go towards building more housing.

Other items include $135 million for the Canada housing benefit to provide low- and moderate-income renters the ability to make ends meet. We're putting $99 million into the rapid acquisition of shelter space and deeply affordable housing. We're devoting $27 million to co-op housing development—a great way to increase affordable options for families. We will continue showing up for Canadians by rapidly building the housing we need.

I'd like to speak about one last item, which is new funding of $4.9 million through the estimates for victims and survivors of hate crimes. This funding is part of Canada's action plan on combatting hate. The action plan represents Canada's first-ever comprehensive, cross-government effort to combat hate.

Budget 2024 announced $29 million over six years, starting this year, to enhance or establish financial assistance and compensation programs for victims of hate-motivated crime. The funding would also help raise awareness in the judiciary about the unique dynamics of hate crime, and support the development and delivery of specialized training for Crown prosecutors on this very topic. We've seen an alarming rise in hate crimes in Canada. Horrible incidents of anti-Semitism have skyrocketed. Hate against the queer community is up. People don't feel safe in their own neighbourhoods. It is unacceptable and un-Canadian. We need to stamp out hatred in our communities and ensure perpetrators are held to account.

Bill C-63 is a key part of our plan to stop hatred in Canada. I was very proud to stand alongside the National Council of Canadian Muslims, the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs, the Canadian Race Relations Foundation and others when I introduced Bill C-63 in February of this year. I share the disappointment of many Canadians that this bill has been stalled in the House of Commons by partisan games. Bill C-63 creates tougher penalties for hate crimes and ensures there are mechanisms to hold people accountable for online hate that would not be acceptable in the off-line world. I am proud of this legislation, and I hope to see it progress soon.

Madam Chair and committee members, the appropriations requested through the supplementary estimates (B) are part of our government's larger vision of support, rather than cuts, for Canadians. I am committed to creating a justice system that is accessible, fair and efficient. I work every day towards achieving this goal. I hope all members of this committee will work to ensure this important funding flows to Canadians.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now move to our first round of six minutes each.

MP Jivani, go ahead, please.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, you mentioned tougher bail restrictions in your opening statement. The 2024-25 departmental plan mentions a key priority of supporting survivors and victims of crime.

I'd be curious to know why you think police officers—like Sergeant Lisa Harris from Newfoundland and Labrador, who appeared before the status of women committee last week—are asking your government for stricter bail conditions, and why police unions across the country right now are begging you publicly to introduce stricter bail conditions, since you believe you've already delivered that.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Jivani, for the question.

We heard loudly and clearly about the need for bail reform and responded to that request. That came about 18 months ago.

What I'd say about police is that I understand their concerns. I feel their concerns. I also know that in my city—close to where you represent, sir—we have 700 fewer police officers in the Toronto Police Service than we did when Bill Blair was the chief of police.

I think we need more policing, but we also need more resources dedicated by the provinces for things like courtrooms, Crowns, JPs and detention facilities.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

There's condescension in what you're saying, though. Police officers use their voice to express their concerns, and you dismiss it by saying you dealt with it 18 months ago. They're tweeting at you now asking for stricter bail conditions. I've seen you respond to the Ontario government, for example, and suggest that bail law is very difficult to interpret for those without a background in law.

There seems to be a streak of condescension. I'm asking you quite clearly if you're willing to take any responsibility for the problems police officers, survivors and victims are articulating to you now.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I take a lot of responsibility for keeping Canadians safe. That is my job. I respect the job that police officers are doing by putting themselves in the line of fire to keep us safe. I also take cues from police officers, including Deputy Chief Alvaro Almeida, who has said that in York Region, the problem is resourcing in the system, including the availability of court space and Crowns.

The National Police Federation, an umbrella organization that represents officers around the country, has pointed out the exact point that I've been making, which is that in some jurisdictions, JPs need to have legal training if they're going to make decisions about charter interests. That is not the case in Ontario, and it's an open question as to why.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I've heard you make this point before. Ordinarily when you speak, you seem to leave out entirely the principle of restraint, the part of the Criminal Code that many people point to as a source for a lot of the bail issues in our country right now.

I'm wondering if you will admit today that the principle of restraint being introduced by your government was a mistake, and that a big part of the problem is that you have not used your powers through the Criminal Code to enforce strict bail conditions, as many of these stakeholders—the police officers, victims and survivors—are asking you to do.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Jivani, this predates your time in Parliament, but when we passed Bill C-75, what we were doing was codifying Supreme Court case law, including decisions like Antic and Zora. Nothing changed with the jurisprudence being transferred into black-letter law in the statute. In fact, the only thing that actively changed was imposing a reverse onus on people who commit intimate partner violence, making bail more difficult for those individuals.

I appreciate the concern you're voicing. I appreciate the crisis happening on our streets. I appreciate the crisis of confidence that Canadians feel when they see people being let out on bail who have been subject to repeat offences. The second ground of bail—there are primary, secondary and tertiary grounds—is a serious risk of reoffending. That test needs to be applied adequately by adjudicators, and that involves having space to house people.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I understand. There's an issue, though. You love to bring up that I'm one of the relatively new MPs, but you've been here for nine years, and to people who hear you speak, you speak like someone who takes no responsibility for any of the problems in the system. This is a source of frustration.

You fail to acknowledge that the principle of restraint in the Criminal Code is a problem for people. You might disagree with them, but at least acknowledge that their point of view is legitimate. When police officers ask you to make change, they're coming from an informed position. When victims and survivors ask you to make change, they're coming from an informed position. When provincial governments ask you to make change, they are coming from an informed position.

You continue to take this posture that you know everything, that everybody's wrong and that I just got here and you've been here for nine years, which somehow means you know what you're talking about and I don't. What I'm relaying to you is not my opinion. What I'm relaying to you is what we are hearing from Canadians and organizations across our country.

Are you taking the position that everybody doesn't know as much as you do and that they simply need to maybe read more of your tweets or your posts to understand better what's going on in the country?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

With all due respect, Mr. Jivani, in my response to your earlier—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Minister, you have 50 seconds for a response, and then that will be the time.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

With all due respect, Mr. Jivani, when you asked me if I take responsibility, I said that it is my responsibility, so I take responsibility.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

You say it—

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I just said it. I've said it twice, Mr. Jivani.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

You say it, but you don't do it.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

If I may, I'll continue.

I'm also taking cues from all the stakeholders in the system. What is fundamental for Canadians to understand is that you can amend the Criminal Code, but the implementation of law enforcement is something that resides at the municipal level and at the provincial level.

When I hear Donna Kellway of the Ontario Crown Attorneys' Association lamenting the lack of resources so that there are enough Crowns to argue about bail, that needs to be remedied at the provincial level. When I hear justices of the peace lamenting the fact that the Toronto South Detention Centre is so overcrowded that it resembles third world conditions—there's yet another article in today's news about that very issue—we're jeopardizing the entire criminal justice system. We need amendments to the Criminal Code, some of which I've delivered, and I'm willing to entertain more suggestions.

Secondly, we—

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Get rid of the principle of restraint. Some are recommending that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much. The time is up.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

If I could finish, Mr. Jivani, what I would say secondarily is that we need more cops and Crowns, JPs with legal training and detention centres. We also need data. The fact that we don't have data, while Mr. Ford's governance of the criminal justice system is resulting in more than 50% of sexual assault charges being stayed or withdrawn, is a problem for everyone in Ontario, including the victims who want to have their day in court. They're not getting that because not enough resources are being dedicated to the system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you, MP Jivani, and thank you, Minister. That is the time.

We have a substitute clerk today, so I don't have the 30-second warning before the time is up. I will try to interject as best I can and as nicely as I can.

MP Bittle, you have six minutes.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

These last two meetings have been surprising. I'm looking across the way and seeing a former prosecutor and someone who went to one of the finest law schools in the world pretending they don't know how the legal system works in this country, especially the criminal system—

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

It's not one of the finest. They're correcting me. Yale law school isn't one of the finest law schools in the world. I guess that will be on division. I think it's pretty good, humbly. I come from the University of Windsor law school.

In any event, I'm wondering, Minister, if there have been any court decisions with respect to the resources that are available for bail.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Absolutely, there have been. In a case called R. v. Muchemi, the justice said:

Even if pre-trial detention conditions were rendered more humane, the decision to deprive someone of their liberty before they have had a trial and the Crown has proven its case should be made sparingly. Given the utterly dehumanizing conditions at the [Toronto South Detention Centre], it must be made even rarer until those conditions improve.

That's the R. v. Muchemi case.

In today's newspaper, they're referring to the fact that the Toronto South Detention Centre is horrific. People there are described as being “Filthy, underfed and caged”. This prompted Madam Justice Himel of the Superior Court of Justice of Ontario to again decry the situation and she reduce the sentence. Normally, there's a sentencing discount. I think most people on this committee understand that. She upped the discount because the conditions are so deplorable. She pointed to the need for better conditions, including more facilities to house people, but also to house them more safely.

This jeopardizes not only the conditions of detention, but also Canadians' confidence in the administration of justice, particularly in the province of Ontario.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

This goes back to the Conservatives being misleading about how the justice system works. Why can't you, as the federal Minister of Justice, deal with the jail conditions that justices are talking about as the members of the Conservative party are suggesting you can?