Justice Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

With all due respect, Mr. Taylor, how long do victims, premiers, police chiefs and presidents of unions have to wait while this government sits and considers this? We are in a crisis. Victims are disappointed in this criminal justice system. I hear from them daily. My colleague Michelle Ferreri hears from them daily, as do Mr. Van Popta and Mr. Jamil Jivani. We are hearing from victims. We are hearing from stakeholders. This government is not ensuring a balance.

How long will it take for this government to provide the necessary tools to judges and justices of the peace so they can hold repeat violent offenders accountable?

[Matthew Taylor]

That's a good question, and unfortunately it's one that's best addressed to the minister. We are working very actively with our provincial partners. We also hear those concerns as public servants responsible for advising the government on the criminal justice system.

We work with our provincial partners. We work with policing partners. We're alive to those concerns, but as to whether law reform should be advanced by either the government or Parliament, that's not for me to comment on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

Next we have Mr. Maloney for five minutes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here. I appreciate your testimony and that of the minister. I will add the questions from my colleagues to that list.

I want to pick up on something that Mr. Brock was just trying to get at and something Mr. Fortin referred to earlier. It's important, in my view, to understand the distinction in responsibility between the federal government, the provincial government and, to some extent, the municipal government when it comes to law enforcement.

Regarding Mr. Fortin's point about judicial appointments, he talked about stays of proceedings and more money for courtrooms. That's what I want to talk about. If you go into a Superior Court in Ontario, the judge is appointed and paid for by the federal government, but everything else is the responsibility of the province. Is that not the case?

I don't know who wants to answer that, but you're all nodding your heads in the affirmative.

[Elizabeth Hendy]

Yes, that's correct.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

That includes the number of courtrooms, the courthouse, the light bulbs, the staff and the Crown attorneys. It's across the board. Is that right?

[Elizabeth Hendy]

Yes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Similarly—and I'll use Ontario as an example again—when it comes to detention facilities, those fall under the jurisdiction of the province as well, do they not?

[Matthew Taylor]

Yes, provincial detention facilities and remand facilities would fall under the responsibility of the province.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Right. If people are denied bail in the province of Ontario, they're going to end up in one of the provincial remand facilities. Is that correct?

[Matthew Taylor]

That is correct.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

If there aren't enough Crown attorneys and provincial detention facilities, or if there is not enough room in provincial facilities, there's nothing the federal government can do about it. Is that right?

[Matthew Taylor]

Conditions in provincial detention facilities are entirely the responsibility of the provinces.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

It's not the federal government's responsibility to build courtrooms or to build provincial detention centres.

[Matthew Taylor]

That is correct.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

That's why the article the minister referred to from the media today was so important for highlighting this. Unfortunately, you're seeing many politicians try to put blame on their opponents as opposed to trying to find appropriate legal solutions. That's really the point I was trying to make.

That also goes for bail laws, because although not all the members are in the room today, I've heard from conservative legal authorities I respect that we don't need new laws; they just need to be better enforced. That goes to what the minister was saying earlier about justices of the peace and provincial court judges. They are the ones responsible for hearing bail applications, if they even get to them—because there aren't enough Crowns to put them before the court—and are not waiving the hearing.

Is that a fair statement?

[Matthew Taylor]

That is correct. The federal government's responsibility is legislative development, but the implementation and administration of those laws are the responsibility of the provinces and territories.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to move on to legal aid, something Mr. MacGregor was talking about, because that's another area of jurisdiction that gets a bit muddied in people's perceptions about areas of jurisdiction.

I practised law in Ontario for 20 years before I went into politics. Legal aid always fell under the jurisdiction of the province. Is that accurate, with the exception of immigration? I'll get to that in a second.

[Elizabeth Hendy]

Criminal legal aid is with the provinces.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

It's criminal legal aid; that's right.

In the last 10 years, certainly since I became a member of Parliament in 2015, there have been some significant changes to the role of the federal government in how it gets involved in criminal legal aid or other components of legal aid. Could you take us through that on a higher level?

[Elizabeth Hendy]

In these supplementary estimates, there's an additional $80 million for criminal legal aid, which would be coupled with $440 million over five years from budget 2024. That additional money would go to the provinces and territories for their legal aid plans for this year.

There's also additional funding, as I explained to Mr. MacGregor, for immigration and refugee legal aid of $71.6 million. That would go to provinces that provide legal aid in immigration and refugee services. That money is also required for this fiscal year.

There is workplace sexual harassment funding. That is for legal advice for claimants of workplace sexual harassment. That runs through the legal aid program, with an additional $5 million in the supplementary estimates this year. There is also an additional $10 million this year for public legal education and legal advice for those individuals. I'll stop there.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Members, bear with me. We are now at 5:11 p.m. and I am going to shorten things a bit. This is a subsequent round. This is not the norm, but this is what happens when we have this kind of session.

I am going to give two and a half minutes to one side and two and a half minutes to the other side, and then Monsieur Fortin, you will have one and a half minutes, and Mr. MacGregor, you will have one and a half minutes. That will bring me to time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Otherwise, Arif will ask the questions.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!