Justice Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon and welcome, everyone.

This is meeting 124 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to the order of reference of November 18, 2024, the committee is meeting today in public to begin its study of the supplementary estimates (B), 2024-25.

We have the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Mr. Arif Virani, with us this afternoon, as well as five members of the ministry.

Before I introduce you all to the committee, I will say a few words.

First, I remind members to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

I remind everyone to please address the chair and have all questions and responses go through the chair. Before we start with our committee, I also want to call to your attention that the clerk has distributed the 10th report of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights in both languages, further to the subcommittee meeting of Monday, November 25, 2024.

[The subcommittee considered] the business of the committee and agreed to make the following recommendations: 1. That the meetings of November 28 and December 16, 2024, be cancelled; and 2. That, for the meetings of December 5, 9 and 12, 2024, the committee conduct a pre‑study of Bill C‑63.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the subcommittee report?

I have two people raising their hands.

Go ahead, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

My answer to your question is yes. I was just going to move to adopt the report, if you hadn't done it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm asking that we defer moving the 10th report until after we hear from the minister. His time is extremely valuable. I think every member of this committee would understand and appreciate that. We're already five minutes into his hour. I received no indication that he's available beyond the 60-minute allotment.

There is a miscommunication, in my view, with respect to the 10th report. The committee as a whole did not agree with respect to item number two. There was vigorous debate. I believe we can still reach a compromise. I'm asking that we have that discussion after the first hour and before we hear from the other justice officials, to make proper use of our time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

It's a simple matter of voting yes or no to adopt the report of the subcommittee, which we dealt with last week. I think we can do that without any delay to the minister and move on because we also have the officials here for the second hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It's not that simple. We had a vigorous discussion with respect to the merits of another proposed study. There was a compromise that I put forward for the committee as a whole.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm not going to get into those details, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

We're treading very closely to that.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I know the parameters. Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

I'm not getting into details. I am saying that it is not as simple and straightforward as Mr. Maloney and the chair would have this committee believe.

I'm respectful of the minister's time. Let's get to the minister, and then we can have a more fulsome discussion about adopting the 10th report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Go ahead, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I move that we adopt the report right now. The subject matter of the report is outlined very clearly. What else Mr. Brock has in mind has nothing to do with the content of the report. It's a simple yes or no. We can vote on it and can move to the minister forthwith.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

A motion to adopt the report is on the floor.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Right, so we have to call the vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I'm advised by the clerk that the motion is on the floor.

Yes, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I move to adjourn debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Can you give me a minute, please? I will get clarification from the clerk and the Table.

All right. I have clear instructions. It's black and white; it's not grey. The vote has been called. We can't move on from the vote, so I have to do the vote.

Clerk, please proceed.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Is the vote to adopt the report?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

No, the motion is to adjourn debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

No. The instruction I received from the Table is that this is not allowed.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Madam Chair, I'm moving to proceed to hear from the minister, which is a dilatory motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

The vote has been called. We can't have another motion. It's black and white. It's not something I can decide on; it's already decided. Apparently, it's the same way in the House. It's nothing I need to make any further points on.

Mr. Clerk, please proceed with the vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

Thank you very much.

I want to welcome you, Minister, and the officials with you: Shalene Curtis-Micallef, deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general of Canada; Laurie Sargent, assistant deputy minister, indigenous rights and relations portfolio; Bill Kroll, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister, management sector; Matthew Taylor, senior general counsel and director general, criminal law policy section; and Elizabeth Hendy, director general, programs branch, policy sector.

We thank you for participating in this meeting.

Without further delay, Minister, I give you the floor. You have 10 minutes.