Justice Committee on May 10th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 16 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, March 31, the committee is meeting to study Bill C-5, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

Today's meeting will be taking place in hybrid format pursuant the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely, using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available by the House of Commons website.

I'd like to say, in the interests of time, that since we had votes and started late, I will condense the first round of questions to five minutes from six minutes, the second round to four minutes and the third round to two minutes—if we reach the third round. I'll try to make sure we reach it, so we'll do them for about 45 minutes each.

For our guests, to let you know, I will give you a 30-second card when your time is at about 30 seconds left, and then I'll give you an “out of time” card. Today, I'll have to be particularly precise on timing, due to the time constraints.

I'll begin with opening statements. We have three panellists for the first hour, or 45 minutes. From Peacebuilders Canada, we have Marlon Merraro, executive director; from Six Nations Police Service, Darren Montour, chief of police; and from Victim Services of Brant, Penny McVicar, executive director.

It's over to you, Mr. Marlon Merraro, for five minutes.

[Marlon Merraro, Executive Director, Peacebuilders Canada]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, and distinguished guests who are also presenting here today.

I would like to start off by saying that the integrity of the justice system depends on equitable social conditions in which we all live. I'm here today to express the Peacebuilders' support for and provide some advice on Bill C-5 and to draw attention to the substantial strides this bill makes in remedying Canada's response to significant social health issues impacting marginalized communities.

For over 17 years, Peacebuilders relied on restorative justice practices to encourage the reintegration of the community with those involved in the justice system. A restorative justice model addresses the individual and collective experiences of systemic marginalization as it relates to exposure to violence, mental illness, mental health, systemic discrimination, poverty and unequal access. Our programs directly respond to the disproportionate number of Black and racialized individuals involved in the justice system.

While we understand the causes of over-incarceration are complex and multi-faceted, we know that sentencing and charging processes play an important role in mitigating the cycle of oppression and connecting individuals to necessary supports and services. Indeed, Peacebuilders believes that Canada's justice system requires sentencing and charging structures that adequately address and respond to the needs of Black justice-involved individuals. We see Bill C-5 as a means of promoting fairer and more just outcomes for Black and marginalized Canadians, while continuing to protect public safety by amending sentencing laws to increase alternatives to incarceration.

By no means does this legislation address the historical issues impacting Black and indigenous folks who are overrepresented in the justice system. It is a step in the right direction. When we look at the wide range of mandatory minimum penalties that have been added to Canadian laws in recent years, it's no secret that many politicians may feel more comfortable with the idea of eliminating some types of mandatory minimum penalties than they do eliminating others. Discrimination, the undermining of public safety and violations of constitutional rights are problems associated with all mandatory minimum penalties, not only the 13 of the 72 offences carrying mandatory minimum penalties dealt with in Bill C-5 and the seven additional offences partly dealt with by the bill.

As countless previous reports and Black and indigenous leaders have urged across this country, we think that the proposed amendments would move beyond a piecemeal approach and address all mandatory minimum penalties. We believe that you will be making the right decisions by addressing the historical needs of various communities, especially those who are Black and indigenous and who are overrepresented in the justice system.

Peacebuilders believe that Bill C-5 will address and respond to some of the needs in a more fulsome way, while also promoting public safety and improving confidence in the justice system. We hope to see an increased use of accountability measures that are better suited to addressing the underlying reasons for criminality and that best prevent recidivism. Evidently the public will benefit greatly from Bill C-5 as a tool to respond in enhancing public safety, support the administration of justice, and save funds for other critical resources.

It is through our collective frontline experience, research and community partnership that Peacebuilders can confidently endorse and encourage that more work be done with regards to amendments to Bill C-5, as in committee forums, necessary to begin transforming Canada's justice system. Consequently, we're calling on the Government of Canada to enact and make changes to Bill C-5 in recognition of the need for the justice system to do better for Black and indigenous folks who have been over-represented in our communities. This is about providing other opportunities, such as diversion programs and alternatives to sentencing, and ensuring that we have safer communities for those who are in need of supports that are culturally relevant to integrate back into their communities and have the opportunity and support to better themselves and members of their families.

It is in the best interests of communities that Bill C-5 works to provide judges and other justice officials with the means to be able to support both the community's safety and those who are in need of support to address the overrepresentation of Black and indigenous folks across this country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Merraro.

Next we have Darren Montour from the Six Nations Police Service for five minutes.

Darren.

[Chief Darren Montour, Chief of Police, Six Nations Police Service]

Thank you, sir.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I come from an indigenous police service. Here at the Six Nations of the Grand River Territory, we have seen a drastic increase in violent crimes over the past few years mainly due to the infestation of illicit drugs within the community. Outsiders are supplying the drugs. As a result, community members become addicts, resulting in an increase in violent crimes. We have also lost numerous community members to fentanyl overdoses in the last few years.

In my 30 years as a police officer on Six Nations, this violence has become unprecedented. Many community members have died due to the opioid crisis that the entire country is facing. Homicides have become increasingly frequent. The root cause of all this is drug addiction, which results in people committing other residual crimes, such as break-ins, theft, auto theft, etc., to feed that addiction.

In my experience, sentences imposed by the courts have shown no deterrent effect against this criminal activity. We have charged the same people for the same drug trafficking offences several times over, and they still continue to traffic in this community. Rarely is there a custodial sentence for controlled drugs and substances trafficking. In conjunction with the drug charges, traffickers arm themselves with various types of weapons, including firearms that are both prohibited and restricted. None of the traffickers has the proper licence to even possess these firearms. There needs to be a deterrent to persons committing acts of violence when armed with firearms. Regardless of race or ethnicity, there needs to be a deterrent in place for offenders to realize that the violence in our community and against others needs to stop before any further loss of life.

Our Haudenosaunee way of life here at Six Nations is suffering. The recent mental health review of the Ontario indigenous police services contains a comparison of crime severity between indigenous and non-indigenous communities. The crime severity index for the Six Nations of the Grand River in 2020 was 217.62 compared with Brantford at 112.95; Hamilton at 93.53; and Toronto at 90.41. The current murder rate per capita in Ontario is 1.59 per 100,000 of population. The rate here at Six Nations is 7.79.

The proposed conditional sentences for violent offences will not deter offenders from committing further crimes. We are not in a position to continuously monitor sentenced offenders to ensure their compliance with the conditional sentence restrictions handed down by the courts. Police services across the country, and especially those within indigenous communities, are significantly understaffed. We are continuously asked to do more with less, and we cannot sustain this workload. We are currently faced with officers being off for mental health and mental well-being. This will worsen as time goes on.

The Gladue case law for sentencing purposes also has a great influence on whether or not an offender receives a custodial sentence. I can appreciate the statistics regarding the overrepresentation of indigenous offenders in our jails, but along with the rights of offenders, victims and victims' families deserve rights as well. Gladue has a place in sentencing of certain individuals, but those repeat offenders know the difference between right and wrong, and the sentencing principles under Gladue are exploited to the benefit of these offenders.

In my experience growing up and working here on Six Nations, indigenous communities everywhere, as well as here, face the same issues. Intergenerational trauma from the residential school system still plagues our communities. There is a lack of social programs, a lack of infrastructure that non-indigenous communities take for granted—including, for example, clean drinking water and housing—and the list goes on. It is more than just improved law enforcement that is needed to better the lives of all indigenous people in this country.

Among indigenous people there is a inherited historical lack of trust in the justice system and other federal statutes, such as the Indian Act. Colonization has imposed this and other cultural values, such as religion and policies, on indigenous peoples who do not favour them. For some indigenous nations their way of life is no more. For far too long our people have suffered under the effects of colonization. We deserve to feel safe and, more importantly, our children deserve to grow up in a community free from violence. I implore you to consider the well-being not only of the people of Six Nations, but also of all indigenous communities on Turtle Island, when making your decision on proposed Bill C-5.

I'd like to thank this committee for their time today. I look forward to your final decision on this important matter.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Chief Montour.

Next is Ms. Penny McVicar from Victim Services of Brant.

[Penny McVicar, Executive Director, Victim Services of Brant]

Hi. Thank you.

I have been the executive director of Victim Services of Brant for over 20 years. We're located in Brantford, Ontario, and part of our catchment area is the Six Nations of the Grand River.

I'm here today to speak on the concerns that victims may have about changes in this legislation.

In the past year, we have responded to eight homicides in our community. Many of those have been homicides with a gun, a weapon, and quite a number of those have also been drug-related.

We have seen that over the last five years our domestic violence numbers have almost doubled and our sexual assaults have increased by about 20% of those that have been forwarded to Victim Services. I think it's significant to understand that over 40% of the calls to Victim Services of Brant are gender-based violence.

We saw sudden deaths, especially during COVID, increase by almost 58%, and the majority of those were overdose-related. They had to do with a lot of bad fentanyl coming into our community and people overdosing, many of them just occasional drug users and not understanding the drugs they were getting and that they might contain fentanyl.

I think it's really important that I also note that of the incidents we dealt with last year, we had 427 breaches of probation or breaches of conditions. I think that's important to note because many of those are with regard to domestic violence victims or criminal harassment victims, who continue to be threatened and fear for their safety because the offenders are out of custody and are able to access them. I think as a representative of victims, I would like to make sure that when you're looking at the legislation you will building in many protections for victims, especially of gender-based violence, who may be impacted if some of these mandatory sentencings are reduced.

We deal with it every day. Safety planning is something we do repeatedly with victims. We have a number of very serious high-risk victims in our community, and even though the offender has been charged and has spent time in custody, they are now out and the victims are still feeling very much at risk themselves and for their families.

Once again I would thank you for giving me the time to speak today. I will be interested in any questions that may come forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

I will now begin with Mr. Brock, for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for your attendance today.

I'm going to start with Chief Montour.

Chief, it's good to see you again. Thank you for participating.

Chief, you touched upon an important point in your summary. You talked about the differences between repeat offenders and first-time offenders.

This particular bill, Bill C-5, makes no distinction between them. It offers the same benefits to first-time offenders as to repeat offenders by eliminating the mandatory minimum penalties for those significant firearm offences, the significant drug offences, and opening up the possibility for further consideration for conditional sentences.

I would like to know from your perspective how this is going to impact policing on the territory and community safety if the current version of Bill C-5 passes without amendment.

[Chief Darren Montour]

It's good to see you as well, Mr. Brock.

It's going to have an effect here because 99% of the time the victims as well as the offenders are from the Six Nations of the Grand River territory. It's a small community, with a lot of families intermixed by relationships, and in my experience here when people receive conditional sentences, a lot of times these are breached like Penny referred to.

There's breach of probation, and breach of any recognizances, or form 11s now from Justice. It's going to have an effect that we're going to be continuously dealing with these people. In my experience, people reoffend quite often here, and if there's a conditional sentence, that really doesn't do much as far as a deterrent for them is concerned, because even if they have family members, if the person is breaching they will not call the police to report anything. Then the victims feel basically that they are left out with no one on their side.

I know Penny has testified to that. I see that quite often because the first brunt of who hears the complaints of all the people is the police here. We take a lot of heat over that. Then we explain that it's not our call, that we have done what we need to do. The courts do their thing in the process and the sentences are handed down, but it's not anywhere near satisfactory to the victims. That's how I look at it, that we're here to help this community.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have to cut you off. I have a limited amount of time; I want to get to one more question for you before I turn to Penny.

We all agree about the over-incarceration issue. It's a very real issue.

[Chief Darren Montour]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

In my previous career as a Crown attorney, I was always cognizant of that.

Can you offer this committee your perception of indigenous offenders and their respect for or lack of respect for the Canadian judicial system?

[Chief Darren Montour]

In my experience, the majority don't have respect for the justice system. The fact is that they see, if they're a victim of crime, there's nothing done to the offender. Again, I allude to the fact that victims and offenders are from this community. I've seen what I'm going to call “payback” from a victim's family to an offender. We don't need that; it just increases the violence.

Granted, the Gladue case law does work in certain situations for certain offenders. I've seen it myself in the indigenous persons court in Brantford. It does work, but for repeat offenders who know the difference between right and wrong, it doesn't, and we see it.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chief.

I'll move on to Penny McVicar.

Penny, the Victim Services of Brant provides accessible, confidential, client-centred support for victims of crime. As the executive director, can you provide this committee with your opinion of Bill C-5 and the impacts on victims and survivors of crime, particularly in the context of domestic violence, bearing in mind now that the offence of sexual assault will offer the benefit of a conditional sentence, if Bill C-5 passes?

You have 30 seconds.

[Penny McVicar]

I would say that I see too many victims who are now not reporting to police because of the fact that they feel like it's a revolving door. They report to the police, the suspect is arrested, and then they're back out on the streets before the victim even has time to get a good safety plan in place.

It's a big concern in our community. We have a large number of domestic violence cases. I think we rank pretty high on the uniform crime reporting for domestics.

I write priority housing letters on an almost daily basis for victims trying to relocate, hoping to find someplace safe that they can live where their abuser won't be able to find them. The shelters are overflowing because we don't have enough shelter space for women trying to get away from violent offenders.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. McVicar.

Now we'll go to Ms. Dhillon for five minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

My question is for Mr. Montour.

You spoke about the increase in drug consumption and violence. Can you please explain, in your opinion, why this is the case, from what you've been seeing during your work?

[Chief Darren Montour]

With the influx of more hard-core drugs like fentanyl and cocaine, the addiction level has increased to the point that the addicts here in the community have no cares of where they get their next fix. The crimes to help feed that are on the rise, as well as the violence, because we have outsiders coming in who are supplying the drugs and the traffickers are community members here. At times there's violence against each other, and then there's violence against their spouses, like Penny has alluded to with domestic violence. More recently, there have been a lot of homicides in the last little while involving firearms. The basis of everything is drugs.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Montour.

My next question is for Mr. Merraro.

You spoke about keeping young people out of prison. How does your program help youth recidivism or even with youth entering the justice system to begin with?

Thank you.

[Marlon Merraro]

Our program looks to work with young people on two levels. One is to repair the harm and relationships that have been damaged through their actions. Second is to look for ways in which they can address some of the root causes of the behaviours that brought them to the justice system in the first place.

We work with young people to encourage them to fulfill their education, seek full-time employment and mentorship, and look at their own psychology of how they think of themselves, their identity and how they fit and sit within the world they live.

There are two key points to our restorative justice model. One is repairing the harm caused by an individual. The second is not as common. It's looking at how the system—whether it's the education, justice or the child welfare system—has impacted them. It's helping young people and their families come to terms with the damage that has been caused by the system they exist in, which they have very little power to change.

Our program is not about hugging a thug. It isn't about not being responsible for your actions. Our program would never say that some people should not be processed through a criminal justice system.

What we do say is that we need to provide young people and young adults—emerging adults, especially those from 19 to 25 who are overrepresented and who face mental health, drug use and abuse issues because of trauma that has been caused in their life.... We need to go to the root causes of that and support them in their transition to making better decisions for them and their loved ones. That actually increases the safety within our communities. We've seen this in many cases.

Working at addressing root causes is one of the things we believe the criminal justice system can help support. Support funding for women's programming and family supports. Support educational attainment for students and their families. Support family reintegration because many families are separated when they come through, for example, the immigration system. I, myself, have gone through that process.

Those are the kinds of things we believe help create safer communities, utilizing a restorative justice model.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you for that response.

In your opinion, do you think this tough-on-crime stance that a lot of people advocate for disadvantages Black Canadians, indigenous people and other marginalized communities the most?

Very recently, a report came out showing that, for the first time ever, 50% of incarcerated women are indigenous.

Could speak to us about these two things, please?

Thank you.

[Marlon Merraro]

Absolutely.

There is enough science, data and research that tells us who is filling up our jails, who is being exploited within our child welfare system and who is not gaining educational attainment. We know those are Black and indigenous racialized folks and communities. This is not by happenchance. This didn't just fall out of the universe.

We have systems at play here that continually perpetuate systemic racism. The federal government, our provincial government and the city of Toronto all recognize that there is systemic racism. If we all agree as a nation that there is systemic racism, then we know the individuals and communities who are being impacted by systemic racism.

What we would—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Merraro. Hopefully you'll be able to answer in the subsequent questions.

The next round goes to Monsieur Fortin for five minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with you, Mr. Merraro.

The last part of your testimony interests me, but there's something I don't understand. You've told us that prisons are filled with black and indigenous people and this is due to systemic racism, but how does it happen? Do police officers fabricate nonexistent evidence against the racialized people they arrest? Are judges tougher on them? In clear terms, why do you think there are so many racialized people in our prisons?

[Marlon Merraro]

Excuse me, I did not get the translation in English. I am very sorry for not understanding the question.