Justice Committee on May 10th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I'll give the time again. Can you please put your interpretation to English at the bottom of your screen? I'll reset your time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Merraro, I'd like to go back to the answer you gave to the last question you were asked. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said that prisons are full of black and indigenous people and that it is due to systemic racism.

Why do you think this is the case? Why are there more black or indigenous people in our prisons? Is it because the police are harder on them? Is it because the judges are too harsh and send them to prison?

[Marlon Merraro]

I would explain this phenomenon with a couple of reasons. We are overpolicing particular communities in the city of Toronto. We have priority neighbourhoods that are overpoliced, which means young people are coming into contact with police not in a positive way, but in more negative engagements.

The second thing I would say is the trauma that is caused by engagement with particular institutions is creating people who distrust the system. Sometimes we'll make bad choices.

One of the biggest reasons our jails are filled up with Black and indigenous folks, racialized folks, is the fact that we're criminalizing poor people. We are criminalizing their acts. We're criminalizing how they live because they don't have the means to be able to take care of themselves. In turn, people sometimes make decisions that may not be in their best interests or in the interests of their families or communities.

We have to agree that Canada has been built on the issues of racism. In our truth and reconciliation process that went through, we all agreed that things needed to change for indigenous folks, and we know from the reports that there is bias with regard to how young people, especially, are getting diversion programs or access to support programs within the criminal justice system. The treatment is not the same.

I believe we have enough research and data at all three levels of government that tell us this is a problem. It isn't just an individual problem—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Merraro. I understand your message. There are indeed statistics that prove your point: many black and indigenous people are in our prisons. I don't question that. What I am questioning, however, is why things are the way they are.

First, you said that some communities are over-policed. Then you said that people no longer trust the system. Finally, you said you don't have enough resources and people are desperate.

All this makes me wonder whether this is not so much a problem with minimum sentences as a problem with social inclusion. Perhaps these people in trouble should be helped with special resources, perhaps even with sessions to help them learn about the police? I'm not a sociologist and I don't want to invent new ways of doing things, but I wonder if it would be possible to take more productive measures than just abolishing minimum sentences.

Even if we abolish minimum sentences, these people are still going to end up in prison if they commit crimes. Whether it's one year, four years or six months, they're not going to avoid it. Of course that's not what you want or what we want as a society.

To really tackle the problem, are there no solutions other than abolishing minimum sentences?

[Marlon Merraro]

I agree with some of your points with regard to other options. Providing justice with other options around diversion-supported programs is one way of dealing with the issues. I don't believe that we should abolish all minimum sentences, but I think we need to look at which ones we need to have and which are the ones we need to provide alternatives to incarceration.

Where do we fund and support programs that help young people and adolescents stay out of criminal activity?

This is a quick piece. When we think of young people not feeling safe and telling the police that their safety is at hand, they go out and protect themselves. This is a reality that young people face in communities. If they don't trust the police to protect them, they will trust someone else.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Merraro.

Next we go to Mr. Garrison for five minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to continue with you, Mr. Merraro. Something you said at the beginning struck me, because it goes against what we often hear here at the committee from both questioners and witnesses. There's often a presumption that this bill will actually be a threat to public safety. I think that is sometimes based, without any evidence, on the idea that violent and repeat offenders would get lesser sentences by eliminating the mandatory minimums.

You said that you think the bill promotes public safety. Can you tell us a bit more about why you think that's true?

[Marlon Merraro]

I believe the bill promotes public safety to a particular extent. There are, I believe, situations where individuals who are not receiving the kinds of support that they need to receive have to be supported within a different facility—understandably, and agreed. I have worked with young people who have faced mental health...and there are no community supports for those young people. They are not only harming themselves; they're also harming individuals within the community. It's not because they are choosing to. It's because of their mental health, and their support to address their mental health isn't being addressed within the community.

If we allow for minimum sentences to be placed on those individuals who may not have the options, I can understand how it promotes safety. But we cannot lose sight of the fact that minimum sentences do not guarantee public safety. The individuals supporting individuals in making the transition from being in the justice system to productive citizens promotes safety in communities. In no way would I ever advocate for those individuals to be just out on the street without any kind of conditions or without any kind of supports. We see what happens when they're not supported. Individuals and families get hurt. Communities become unsafe.

But to leave all of that weight of society on one individual—I think that's not the Canadian way. We know as Canadians that it's a complex web of support or not support. The systems also play a role within the lives of individuals in helping them make or not make decisions. That needs to be taken into account when justices of the peace are administering justice. They should have the opportunity to do so.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We know that with mandatory minimums, the result is a lot of people spending relatively short times of incarceration in provincial institutions. In your experience, does that result in them getting counselling, treatment, or the kinds of things they need when they're in provincial institutions for a very short term? Or would they be better off in diversion and conditional sentences?

[Marlon Merraro]

That's a very good question. It's not as easy to answer. We do know that when individuals are placed in custody, programs and services in custody.... Even better yet, when organizations like ours and others who are trying to get into facilities to support individuals in their reintegration back into community, that is also a struggle. They're underfunded. It's more around penalizing behaviours than it is addressing the root causes of behaviours.

When individuals are coming out, most of the programs that are working to either mentor or help in educational or life goal planning around employment, etc., are on year-to-year funding. There isn't a constant resource apparatus set up for organizations like ours and others. Direct Your Life works with individuals coming out of incarceration. There needs to be more emphasis on those supports. That is what creates safety in communities.

If our young people and those adolescents have a place to go to help address their mental health and deal with the trauma that's been caused, and we help support other positive activities like education and employment, we will have safer communities. It's not enough to just lock people up. We need to lock people up when necessary and provide support and resources for when they come out. The majority of them will be coming out. What they come out to is going to be a different world. They may not come out to the resources that are going to help them make different decisions. That has to be addressed if we want safer communities.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much.

You also talked about how this bill doesn't address historic injustices. One of the things I see missing in the bill is expungement of criminal records. Can you talk about the effect of criminal records on the ability to rehabilitate and work with people?

[Marlon Merraro]

The expungement of criminal records is essential to young people, whether they be youth or young adults coming into communities. Most jobs that you will be applying for, if not all jobs nowadays, will involve a criminal record check. We don't know on the other side how those decisions are made for individuals with criminal records. It's a major barrier to employment.

The cost of getting it expunged has been reduced, and that's a good-news story, but the process of getting it expunged is also difficult and time-consuming. If you were innocent—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Merraro. I apologize. I don't feel like cutting you off, but due to the time constraints, I must.

Next I will go for two three-minute rounds. They're condensed a bit further.

The first round goes to Mr. Moore for three minutes.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I will address this to Chief Montour. You raised so many great points. Thank you for using the word “victims” in your testimony, because oftentimes we do not hear about victims, and I'm afraid they're the forgotten group when we're dealing with Bill C-5.

You mentioned the problem with drugs and overdoses. There's a misconception with this bill that it somehow deals with the simple possession of drugs when, in fact, it eliminates mandatory prison time for drug dealers. The mandatory sentence under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act that targets drug dealers who are charged with, for example, trafficking or possession for the purposes of trafficking, importing and exporting for the purposes of exporting, and production of a schedule 1 or 2 substance—that's heroin, cocaine, fentanyl, crystal meth.... Mandatory prison time would be eliminated for all of those things.

Chief, could you speak to what impact you think that would have on communities, on offenders and even on morale within the police, who are trying to help make our streets safer?

[Chief Darren Montour]

It would be very frustrating, because we would be continuously dealing with the same people over and over. That's been my experience in the last several years. It's the same group of people—even family members who traffic drugs, and they're trafficking in the serious drugs fentanyl, cocaine and heroin. People are dying in this community.

We look to the justice system and there has to be some sort of deterrent, like I said before. I always speak of the victims because that's why I became officer; it was to help people in my community. Even others coming to this community, who are non-community members, have a right to be protected and feel safe in this community, as well, and with the infestation of drugs there's violence that goes along with that.

Seeing that over and over again, you can see it in the eyes of the officers. They're thinking, “We have to go to this place again and deal with this violence again”. Hopefully, there's something that comes out of this, so that there is a deterrent that stays in place for simple possession.

Yes, we have a drug strategy committee in here to help the people with the addiction. That is forefront to us, because law enforcement is only one spoke in the wheel to help this community.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

On the issue with regard to guns, you mentioned that this bill eliminates mandatory jail time for robbery with a firearm, extortion with a firearm and possession for purpose of weapons trafficking. You mentioned that there's been an increase over the last several years of these types of offences.

What type of message do you think eliminating mandatory jail time for those serious gun crimes will send?

[Chief Darren Montour]

Where's the deterrent to the offenders? I've seen robberies with firearms increase due to drug addiction. Homicides with firearms are prevalent nowadays in this community, as well as other communities in and around the Six Nations of the Grand River territory.

Again, I go back to the victims. How do the victims' families feel if their neighbour is convicted of a serious firearms offence and that person is on a conditional sentence? We deal with the fallout of redemption from the victim's family next. That has happened here in this community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Next we'll go to Madam Diab for three minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing as we continue to talk about Bill C-5.

Today in Parliament, we have Science Meets Parliament day, and I have guests with me who are listening to these proceedings this afternoon. Much of what we've heard about this act goes to spot facts, evidence, science and reports.

I have a question with my less than three minutes for Mr. Merraro.

The Gladue reports and the impact of race and cultural assessments, according to facts and what we have seen in many provinces and jurisdictions, help judges to understand the role of systemic racism and bringing someone before the courts. However, mandatory minimum penalties of imprisonment impose a one-size-fits-all approach to sentencing that prevents them from using that information to craft a fit sentence.

Can you tell us why judicial discretion, in your opinion, based on your 25 years of experience working with young people, is important in ensuring that people receive appropriate sentences that take into account all of their circumstances?

[Marlon Merraro]

Taking into account the individual's life circumstances is very important to addressing the root causes and helping justices make much more informed decisions.

One of the stats that I would like to mention is that 86% of women in federal prisons have histories of physical and/or sexual abuse. In the work that we do with children and youth, we know that young people who are in the child welfare system are also in the justice system. They face family separation and trauma, and now they're in a justice system with its having no idea of the injustices of the history of this young person in regard to their addiction, the trauma that they've faced and why they may be standing or sitting in front of a justice today.

It's vitally important that justice officials have this information and can take the whole person into account when rendering their decisions. It allows for opportunities for those young people to be able to address some of the historical harms that they have caused. We would advocate and continue to advocate for that type of information to be within the justice process so that judges are able to make proper, informed decisions.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

With 15 seconds left, I will give that time to the next witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Madam Diab.

That concludes our first panel.

I'll suspend for 30 seconds for a quick sound check.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, don't Mr. Garrison and I get a two-minute round?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

We only have 35 minutes.

I want to get you a good round in the next set of questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

We will now resume.

For the witnesses who are online, please put the headset on. The witnesses in the room can put on a headset, set it to the preferred language, and then you should be able to get interpretation.

Please set that in the beginning, as we have to be efficient and on time.

To the witnesses, you have five minutes to make your opening statements. I have these quick flash cards. When there is 30 seconds remaining, I'll post this one. When you're out of time, I'll then post this one, and please wrap up accordingly.

To begin, we have Sarah Dover, a lawyer who is here as an individual. From the Criminal Lawyers' Association, we have Leo Russomanno, senior defence counsel; and Adam Weisberg, lawyer and secretary. In person today from the Federation of Asian Canadian Lawyers, we have Justin Yeun, criminal defence lawyer.

I'll begin with Sarah Dover for five minutes.