Justice Committee on May 13th, 2022

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Coyle.

My next question is for Mr. Rudin.

As Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, of course I'm very concerned about the opioid crisis. The government recognizes that problematic use of substances is a health issue. We're working hard to ensure that people who use drugs are referred to support services they can trust within the health care system, rather than getting caught up in the justice system.

With this in mind, Bill C-5 amends the Criminal Code to repeal certain mandatory minimum sentences for drug and substance use offences.

Would you agree that a health-based approach and alternatives to prison sentences for simple drug possession could be positive, important steps in the right direction?

[Jonathan Rudin]

There's no question that many of the individuals who are involved in low-level drug trafficking and drug-possession cases are addicts themselves. Jailing them does not work. We know that from our work. We operate and have operated our criminal diversion program since 1991, which takes on people who have drug offences, as well as other charges. There's no question that if people are going to address their substance use, they're not going to do that in jail. What they're going to do in jail is take more drugs or other drugs.

I think Bill C-5 is a step in the right direction. I don't know that we really want to be criminalizing people at all who are using drugs. Our brief to the expert task force on substance abuse was to decriminalize the use of drugs. Bill C-5 talks about enhanced diversion. I would point out that in our discussions with the Toronto Police Service, they are saying that there's going to be a price tag for these sorts of things.

I would just urge the federal government to consider, as Bill C-5 goes forward, that things will be in place to allow the provisions that the bill permits to happen on the ground, because the division of powers in this country makes what seem to most people to be very simple things, actually very complicated.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you think the police have the tools they need to enforce these new standards?

[Jonathan Rudin]

I can only speak to the places where we have programs. Yes, there are programs out there, but there needs to be a commitment—if the expectation of police is that they're going to release individuals through programs—that there are programs out there. Again, the question of funding becomes crucial.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you—

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

In your view, what's the best way to break the cycle of recidivism?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Ms. Brière, unfortunately, your time has run out.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

The next six-minute round will go to Monsieur Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Bui, thank you for your moving testimony. Clearly, you have been through a lot and I truly sympathize with you.

I have a few questions for Ms. Coyle.

I heard the figures you quoted, particularly about indigenous women in jail. They make up more than 80% of the female prison population in Western Canada. I think we can all agree that makes no sense.

What I want to know is why. Some say it's due to mandatory minimum sentences.

On the one hand, Gladue reports can be filed in all cases, which should theoretically lead to more appropriate sentences for indigenous women. On the other, support services could be provided upstream to indigenous communities, to prevent offences from being committed in the first place. I don't know if it's a good idea to lower the bar so much as to completely do away with prison sentences for certain offences. If they are significant, I'm not sure that's the way to go. I really wonder.

I'd like to hear your views on the matter. First, does the availability of Gladue reports help reduce the number of indigenous women in jail?

[Emilie Coyle]

Paragraph 718.2(e) of the Criminal Code is what we usually refer to when we're talking about Gladue reports. As Mr. Rudin has already said, they are unavailable in many parts of the country. Many things that are in principle do not follow in practice. Certainly, we would not want to eliminate Gladue reports. We think it's an excellent first step.

However, we have to step back a bit and realize that all of the actors who contribute to the criminalization of indigenous women have their part to play. It's really important that the justice system recognizes that they can't step back and say, “You know what, we're going to pass the buck. This isn't our responsibility. We can't claim that it's our responsibility.” In fact, it is the responsibility of the justice system vis-à-vis the ways we overly punish people, particularly indigenous women and gender-diverse people.

That is why we are here today, along with our colleagues with whom we submitted the brief. It is to speak about the fact that mandatory minimum penalties overly impact indigenous women—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Coyle. I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't have much time.

[Emilie Coyle]

No problem.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

From what I gather from your testimony, Gladue reports are helpful, but they're not available in several parts of Western Canada.

Wouldn't it be useful to fund training to teach people how to draft Gladue reports?

[Emilie Coyle]

Certainly, I think more funding would definitely be welcome for many people who are seeking Gladue reports. In particular, you need the courts and the Crown in those areas of the country to recognize that they are valuable and they bring valuable information to the court.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Are you telling me that some crown attorneys in the west do not consider the Gladue report to be useful?

[Emilie Coyle]

That's correct.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay.

There may be work to be done to explain the usefulness of the Gladue reports and to have them accepted by both defence lawyers and prosecutors. In addition, we should ensure that training is offered to those who would be able to write such reports in each case.

I understand that this would be an important step in avoiding the overrepresentation of indigenous women in western Canadian prisons.

[Emilie Coyle]

Yes, I would agree with that. I would also say that it should be extended to include Black defendants as well. We should look to a similar type of pre-sentencing report that could be provided for Black defendants.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Obviously, Gladue reports are requested before sentencing, once the person is found guilty. However, certain things could be done beforehand.

I understand that this could include the Black community and perhaps other communities, but, for the time being, let's talk about the indigenous women's community, since that's the one you mainly represent, I think.

If we want to prevent indigenous women from being brought to justice for acts they have committed, would it not be appropriate to work upstream and prevent these acts? For example, could we work on better socialization or on conflict resolution other than through violence? Couldn't certain things be done upstream to prevent offences from being committed?

[Emilie Coyle]

What we need to do, particularly when it comes to indigenous women and gender-diverse people, is to not individualize or locate the responsibility in the person, but look at what we need to do as a society to address anti-indigenous racism. We need to look at colonial practices. Really, there's a lot to do, with financing certainly, funding, yes. I agree.

Thank you. Sorry, I'm out of time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Coyle.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Next we will go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking Ms. Bui for her testimony and to say that as a fellow adult survivor of child sexual abuse, I have a bit of an understanding of how hard this is to do.

Your testimony is very important, in the way that our justice system fails victims. Our committee has a study going forward on that, and at the appropriate time, I'm going to ask that your testimony be brought forward for that study.

My first question that I'd like to ask is for Mr. Rudin. He raised an important point.

This bill will expand access to conditional sentences, but will that make a difference for those who live in rural, remote or indigenous communities? Will they actually be able to avail themselves of conditional sentences? Are the resources available?