Justice Committee on May 13th, 2022

[Jonathan Rudin]

Thank you for the question. It is a very important one.

It is true that in some communities the resources that might be necessary are not present. We don't want to assume that just because it's a small community, an indigenous community, a reserve community, that there are not resources there. Certainly one of the concerns I think a judge will have are how they are going to enforce house arrests, or how they are going to get the programming they need if it's not available in the community.

While it's important to have those options available, again, this has to be tied to increased resources to allow for these conditional sentences to actually be implemented.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you for that.

I want to turn to the Elizabeth Fry Society.

Ms. Coyle, one thing you raised was for us was to focus on the individuals and the impacts on individuals of incarceration.

Could you talk a bit more about what happens in terms of housing security, employment security, and child custody for women who are incarcerated?

[Emilie Coyle]

I'd like to invite my colleague Nyki to perhaps answer one of these questions as well.

Nyki.

[Nyki Kish]

Thank you.

I think the reality is devastating and one that many are not familiar with. We see very poor outcomes pre-, during and post-incarceration not only for indigenous, marginalized and gender-diverse people, but also for their communities.

Certainly, the present system is overwhelmed itself by these overrepresentations and incapable, often despite its best intentions, of facilitating a meaningful family contact, reintegration supports, employment supports and the things we need to build strong communities.

As we're working on the ground level to resource our communities and to work preventively and post-incarceration, we're hoping, through this, that we can just revert to a more responsible law that would be informed by social context, and then respond to the needs of everybody impacted by a crime.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We see that mandatory minimums often result in short sentences served in provincial institutions.

Ms. Kish, can you talk about what resources for rehabilitation or treatment of addiction, or those kinds of things, are actually available to people serving those short provincial sentences?

[Nyki Kish]

Unfortunately, there are almost none.

Across the country, remand centres are notoriously deprived of rehabilitative services. They're structurally violent places where people are essentially kept in cages for most, if not all, of the day, and where the quality of food is very low. People have very limited access to the phone and to the law. What we do know, because we've been living in the system, is that this outcome not only produces detrimental results for the people who experience these systems, but also for community and society broadly.

If we want safe communities, we have to build transformative justice that cares about the needs for all.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

One of our previous witnesses mentioned that a lot of the conflict in the justice system is, of course, a legacy of colonialism in the residential school system. They noted that the over-incarceration of women, in a very direct way, perpetuates that intergenerationally. It inflicts damage on kids, in particular, because of their mothers being incarcerated.

Is that something you are seeing?

[Nyki Kish]

Emilie, did you want to jump in?

[Emilie Coyle]

Go ahead.

[Nyki Kish]

It is something that we see, unfortunately. I don't mean to laugh at any of this context. It's devastating, because we see people who are transferred—especially right now—from the prairie regions with the highest overrepresentation of incarcerated people to the Atlantic region where people are completely isolated from family and community, which was not the purpose of the regionalization of the women's prison system.

[Emilie Coyle]

I just want to add that if you walk into a prison designated for women in this country, you will find that the visitation areas, which are generally full if you go to the prisons designated for men, are empty.

Often, there are no opportunities or resources available for the children of the people who are in those prisons to go to visit. We do have a mother-child program in the prisons designated for women, which is largely underutilized and, in my opinion, should never be utilized. We don't want children in prison. In fact, in lots of ways, we would like anybody who is parenting not to have to serve their time in prison, especially if they have the main parenting responsibility in their family.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Would the expansion of access to conditional sentences then help address that problem?

[Emilie Coyle]

Yes, in our opinion, it would.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Sorry, Mr. Chair. I think we're having a little Internet problem here, perhaps on my end, so I'll just end my questioning there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison. I think she just had a simple one-word answer, so that might have been it.

Next, we'll have two rounds of five minutes.

We'll go to Mr. Moore for five minutes.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing today.

Ms. Bui, thank you for sharing your personal story. I know that must be very difficult. I think it's important for us, as a committee, to hear from victims of crime. We do not hear from victims of crime often enough, and we certainly appreciate your taking the time to share with us your story today.

According to the Criminal Code, one of the main objectives of sentencing is to promote a sense of responsibility in offenders and acknowledgement of the harm done to victims and to the community.

You've shared with us your experience and the experience in your community. What message do you think it sends to victims if, for very serious crimes, we do not impose some form of incarceration on the perpetrators?

[Beth Bui]

For me, I would feel not important, like my rights are not being considered.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

What do you think Parliament should be focused on when it comes to gender-based violence, if more house arrests and conditional sentencing are not the answer? What message does that send to Canadians, particularly women and girls?

As well, what do you think Parliament should be doing instead of reducing the sentences for some of these crimes?

[Beth Bui]

I would like more accountability. I would like to be heard. I would like to be seen. I think that's what missing for the victims of these cases.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Yes, okay. Thank you.

[Beth Bui]

It's just been a struggle for me from day one. I feel like I have to fight the system. I had to struggle to be heard by the police and the Crown. When I was on the stand, I felt so little. I felt like I didn't exist.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

We appreciate your having your voice heard here today at a parliamentary committee. I'm sure you're speaking on behalf of the many victims and their feelings throughout our country.

Mr. Rudin, I have a question for you.

You mentioned something we should all acknowledge. When you mentioned it, I thought it was something we really need to take note of. That is, Canada is multi-jurisdictional with federal, provincial and municipal components of either the responsibility or the impact when it comes to our justice system. As you know, in the federal government, we have carriage of the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

You mentioned the importance of resources on the ground if we're going to make changes. We've heard testimony from others saying that, whether it's parole, conditional sentencing or ensuring someone is meeting their conditions, resources are stretched thin. When we make a change here in Ottawa at the federal level, it has a downward pressure on other jurisdictions. Can you elaborate on that a bit? Maybe share some of your thoughts on what groundwork should be laid or resources put in place when we're making these types of decisions?

[Jonathan Rudin]

I think it's very important, when the federal government starts to bring in legislation such as Bill C-5, that there is funding available to the provinces to be able to create the programs that are necessary. The Department of Justice is generally very good at often providing funding. It's a cost-share arrangement with the provinces.

The provinces have to want to be involved too. That just needs to be considered. If a province is obstreperous and refuses to put funding in, then it creates a real problem in which, in our case, indigenous people end up suffering the most.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

Next for five minutes is Ms. Diab.