Justice Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Steve Sullivan]

As Jaymie-Lyne mentioned, we're talking about victims' rights and services here. That's largely done at the provincial and territorial levels.

When you look at how those services are funded, it really comes through victim surcharges through the Criminal Code, or through their own provincial surcharges, which are on Highway Traffic Act offences. That's where they get the bulk of their funding.

In some provinces, that's the majority of the funding. It doesn't come from taxpayers' dollars. Governments don't have to make difficult decisions in terms of funding victim services. It's really with what we can raise from offenders. If the message to victims is that we care about them, I don't think that's a very good way to show it.

I know that the federal government provides some funding for programs, projects and that kind of thing. Obviously, increasing that is an area to look at. However, that's often short-term funding. “Try this project. Try this funding. It's for three years.” It's that kind of thing.

That's an ongoing discussion of what the federal government can do to help to fund those services, but, ultimately, I think it's a decision that the provinces and territories have to make.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Ms. Coyle, you mentioned that it's the poor...the mental health and the violence, so where does one start? What would be your number one solution, from a federal perspective? I realize what Mr. Sullivan just said about provincial responsibility, as we know.

Where can the federal government best help in those areas?

[Emilie Coyle]

It could be in the provision of funding for essential services, health care, mental health care and looking at universal basic income to eradicate poverty. Certainly, one of the earlier panellists had mentioned patriarchy and some of the ways that people are harmed, especially the women and gender-diverse people we work with, by the systems that are both racist and sexist. Therefore, funding is certainly always welcome.

It is also looking at some of the persistent systemic ways that people are excluded from community, so that we can bring them back in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

You have 10 seconds, Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you for the time. I'll pass.

Thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Maguire.

Next we'll go to Madame Brière for six minutes.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Ms. Coyle.

Ms. Coyle, in your opening remarks, you said that it was important for victims and offenders to feel protected.

In your experience, are you able to tell us whether the current system adequately protects victims and offenders before the courts, for instance?

In Quebec, we have the network of Centres d'aide aux victimes d'actes criminels, or CAVAC. These are 17 centres whose multidisciplinary teams are mandated to help victims and their families. According to members of this network, there aren't enough services in place to provide this protection.

[Emilie Coyle]

If I may, I'll answer in English.

Certainly there aren't enough services for victims and survivors.

For the people we work with—and I was just answering this in the previous question—they're often so excluded from community that they often don't seek those services. They don't think those services apply to them. They're people who have been criminalized and have spent time in jail or prison and often have been continually spending time in jail or prison, so they don't see themselves as people who are deserving of that support.

I think if we were able to change some of that narrative, it would go a long way.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you think that a better protected person would be more likely to participate in the judicial process, since they wouldn't have to worry about being intimidated or harmed, for example?

[Emilie Coyle]

Yes. I think we also have to be really cognizant of the fact that, as many of the people here have said, the judicial system is confusing from the very beginning all the way to the very end. Even for people who have been trained in the law, it's really hard to understand what something means at certain points in the system. Certainly, if somebody had that support—support that was culturally appropriate, gender-specific and understood the background of the people who were going through it—it would be very helpful.

Even for people who have degrees and have been sitting at this table in front of you today, for them it was still a challenge. For others who are more marginalized, it's even more challenging.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Is it worse for women?

[Emilie Coyle]

Certainly gender is a part of the intersectional identities of oppression that people feel.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

How then do we standardize access to all these sources of information and services that exist?

[Emilie Coyle]

That's a big question. I do think what you mentioned earlier is probably a good start. Look at the local community organizations that work with the people who are most marginalized and try to resource them adequately to provide the support that is needed.

Obviously, we want to prevent people from being victims in the first place. All of this is reactive, but we want to do a lot of upstream work if possible.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

On another note, regarding access to information, do you think that defence lawyers have too much access to victim files?

Is there anything that can be done about this to protect victims?

[Emilie Coyle]

The very complicated and “lawyerly” answer I am unfortunately going to give is “it depends”, because it always depends on the situation and scenario.

I've been a criminal defence lawyer, and the people I've represented are those in the prisons who have been victims themselves, so it's really tough to give you a straight answer without a specific file in front of me.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

We were told that restorative justice has a really positive effect on offenders and victims.

In your opinion, is it possible to ensure the safety of victims while promoting the reintegration of offenders into society?

I would like your response to focus more specifically on women and racialized communities.

[Emilie Coyle]

I do think it's possible, with the consent of the person who is a survivor and victim of what happened. If they consent to participating in that kind of restorative justice process, it is a really good method of resolving and healing.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Madame Brière.

I'll now go to Monsieur Fortin for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sullivan, Ms. Hancock and Ms. Coyle, thank you for being with us today.

Ms. Coyle, I listened carefully to your testimony. The lack of services is obviously a recurring problem. We won't hide it. In fact, all the witnesses are saying so.

As I understand it, legal advisory services should be provided to help victims better understand what's going on. Often, psychotherapy, among other services, can help them overcome these negative events.

Could you to tell us about the differences in services that exist in the provinces?

Are the issues in Quebec substantially the same as those raised in British Columbia, Ontario or elsewhere?

[Emilie Coyle]

The simple answer is no. As you go from province to province, they vary quite a bit. Quebec is a very interesting province, especially for people who are criminalized. They have access to carceral lawyers. They have access to supports we don't see in other provinces, to the same extent.

Certainly, there is legal aid, which provides some support in Ontario and British Columbia, but, if you move into the Prairies, there is very little support there. I think, across the board, that it's very different from province to province.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Most witnesses told us that victims, or victim representatives, if they are deceased, would like to be involved in certain decisions.

I can't remember if it was you, Ms. Coyle, or another witness who talked about the famous plea bargains, when the crown negotiates with the defence, for example, about the sentence that will be imposed.

I have often wondered if it would be a good idea for victims or their representatives to automatically participate in all criminal trials. I have been told that not all victims want to participate in the trial. Some prefer not to participate and others would welcome the idea.

Do you have any statistics on this? In your opinion, do most victims want to take part in the trial or do they prefer to stay out of the trial, out of the judicial mechanism?

[Emilie Coyle]

I don't have data at my fingertips, other than the number of people currently registered as victims, which is quite low compared to the number of crimes or sentences. I think we're seeing not a lack of interest but a lack of desire to revisit the trauma by participating so fully in the criminal trial.

I also think it's hard for people who don't understand the processes I mentioned earlier. Plea bargaining is a very particular form of law. When participating in it, you have to really understand the ins and outs of what people are considering. That would be difficult for the victims. The people I work with are already excluded from so many considerations of the justice system that, as I said earlier, they don't consider availing themselves of those supports.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

When it comes to services, these people need support, including psychological support, which is understandable. They also need guidance to better understand the trial.

Is the outcome of a trial, the conviction or acquittal of an accused, the length of the sentence, if any, so important to the mental health recovery of victims?

Do you think all victims are really concerned about the sentence that will be imposed on the accused, or is this concern rather secondary?

Aren't help and psychological support more important to victims at certain times?