Justice Committee on Aug. 24th, 2022

[H. Wade MacLauchlan]

That was the premise of the question, but let me definitely recognize the point that the minister has made and indeed that the chief justice made when we met with him, that judges throughout Canada, whether they're on the superior courts, on the courts of appeal or on the Supreme Court of Canada, are in fact dealing with roughly half of their docket in the criminal law field.

The other eight justices now currently on the Supreme Court of Canada, as we've seen in their work over even the past 12 months, are very deeply involved in the criminal law field. With this appointment, we should, with confidence here in this committee and as Canadians, appreciate that the Supreme Court of Canada has a lot of strength in its current membership, and that Justice O'Bonsawin will add to that strength.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

All right. Thank you.

Am I correct, Minister Lametti—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Ms. Findlay, you had only two seconds left. Your time is now up. I apologize.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I'll go over to Madam Diab for five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister and Chairperson of the independent advisory board.

Mr. MacLauchlan, let me first thank you, and all the members of the independent advisory board, for the work you are doing regarding the appointment of justices to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Today is truly a historic day.

I want to turn my question, though, to the future. You spoke about the nomination process being, to use your word, an “episodic” appointment—English isn't my first language, but I like it—and that at the moment we probably have some time, until next time. You also spoke about the Honourable Kim Campbell as well as others talking about how it would be great to broaden it, so that lawyers and judges have more time to consider, but also give them, members of the public, parliamentarians and everybody more information on the role of the Supreme Court justice. You touched on that today in your opening remarks but also during questions from everybody around the table in terms of what the qualities are: professional, personal, the ability to communicate, bilingualism, etc.

I guess what I want to ask you about is the importance as well of the process of encouraging and including diverse candidates to be able to even consider themselves applying to this position. It is the highest court in the land. It would be similar to women or minorities or anybody applying to be members of Parliament. These are very respected positions that many people don't see themselves reflected in. I want to congratulate you today, because the more we can have a Supreme Court of Canada that reflects the population of Canadians, that is what we need to aim for.

Mr. MacLauchlan, in whatever time we have remaining, can you tell us what you anticipate that we could do? What are your recommendations?

Then, if we have time, Minister, what can you as the minister do, and what can we as parliamentarians do to help you?

[H. Wade MacLauchlan]

I would encourage members of this committee or Canadians who are following this to watch, if they haven't done so, the feature interview with Justice Mahmud Jamal in late June that was on CTV. I expect it's easy to find on the Internet.

Beyond the formal steps that we identify, such as the Supreme Court of Canada sitting, as it will in mid-September in Quebec City, to get out more, I think every one of us here today might, between now and the end of September, pick up the phone and call someone who might someday be thinking about this or be ready to start thinking. Go for a walk on the beach or have a cup of coffee or go for a walk in the snow. That's exactly what is involved in building the culture of encouragement that I spoke about.

I think it's very similar to the encouragement that many of you go through to become members of Parliament. You have to think a little bit ahead, what's involved, how you get the people around you prepared, and actually how you start looking at what's involved in filling out the application, which is no small piece of work.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

In my outreach across a variety of different communities since 2019, one of the single most important factors that I and other people have identified is mentorship. It's people within society, within the profession, particularly senior people within the profession, saying to somebody younger, “You should be thinking about this. You should be thinking about applying to the bench.” If you're on the bench, it could be a mentor saying, “You should think about applying for an elevation, or applying to the Supreme Court.” We all have a responsibility to do that in whatever walk of life we are in.

We put together a good process, I think, with this current process. We put together a different process with Quebec. We extended an offer to Quebec in the last round, which the Government of Quebec accepted, to have a much more interactive process that reflected the kinds of discussions that have been had over the past 20 years with Quebec. I'm proud of all of that, but I'm also open to making the processes themselves better, whether it's more time or better timing or other ideas as well.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you to both of you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Madam Diab.

I'm going to condense interventions to four minutes.

We'll go to Mr. Caputo for four minutes, and then we'll go to Mr. Maloney and close.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you as well to Mr. MacLauchlan and Minister Lametti. It's good to see you all, and I hope that you've had a good and restful summer.

I want to first take this time to thank Justice Moldaver for his service. He was, in my view, a pioneer in an area that I focused a lot on in my legal career, and that was with respect to bringing awareness in relation to sexual offences against children and Internet luring. He wrote some very critical decisions when on the Ontario Court of Appeal that still resonate today. I'm thinking of the Woodward decision, for instance.

Thank you, Minister, as well. You mentioned Justice Marchand as a recent appointee to the British Columbia Court of Appeal. He's of indigenous heritage. I had the honour of appearing before him when he was a provincial court judge, a Supreme Court judge, and now he's on the court of appeal. I recognize the work that has been done with these appointments, and obviously I want [Technical difficulty—Editor] selection.

In Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo where I reside and where I practised law prior to becoming a parliamentarian, the decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada were significant, particularly as they did relate to criminal law where I focused.

My question is for both of you.

We've had decisions like the Jordan decision, the Zora decision and the Antic decision, and they really do have an impact on how courts operate, particularly in smaller centres. For instance, Clearwater is in my riding, and it may only sit one time every two months. What experience, in your view, does Justice O'Bonsawin bring that will assist with the administration of justice in smaller and rural communities?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for that question, Mr. Caputo. It's an important one, and I'm pleased that, based on your experience, you asked that question.

She comes from a small town in northern Ontario, and she comes from two overlapping minority communities, and so I think she brings that experience with her when it comes to the administration of justice, when it comes to making sure that courts respect or are in a position to respect time delays. For example, you mentioned Jordan.

There is that life experience that's going to be critically important to the way she handles those issues. That in turn will help the rest of us as elected parliamentarians when we're thinking about resource questions or others, whether they be human or financial, or other issues. They will help us do our part to make sure that we address those issues in the administration of justice.

[H. Wade MacLauchlan]

I might add to that point that Justice O'Bonsawin had administrative responsibility as the judge for the court in L'Orignal, a small community to the southeast of Ottawa. In one of the cases that was included in her application, she refers to a decision where she, on appeal, dealt with, in effect, a child situation where the Jordan's principle had been applied, and she overruled the decision on appeal.

I note also that at various stages in her career she has assisted with the legal aid clinics, including to serve indigenous persons.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I believe my time is already up here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

Last, I want to welcome Mr. Maloney to this committee today.

Mr. Maloney, you have the floor for four minutes.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, members, for allowing me to participate on this landmark occasion. It really is a significant day with this appointment, and I'm honoured to be here.

I want to add my thanks to the list of people who have mentioned Justice Moldaver, because he's a remarkable jurist, a great intellect, but he's also an exceptional individual.

My first question is for Mr. MacLauchlan.

You've mentioned these networks of encouragement. In my experience, the legal community has an eye on when these appointments or vacancies become open, but they know less about the board that you chair.

Has there been any process or any thought given to broadening these networks of encouragement to getting people to participate in the board? I'll premise that by saying that the board has been different for each of the five appointments that have been made over the last number of years.

[H. Wade MacLauchlan]

In terms of how the board has evolved or changed for different appointments, I expect that may also reflect the jurisdictional or regional representation that is attached to the openings as they arise.

This is my first opportunity, as you know, to be involved. Let me say, I was very impressed by not only the calibre, the experience and lively commitment of each of the board members, but also how we came together—most of us not knowing each other—and actually had a very successful collaboration and a lot of fun getting to the result that we have today.

I take your point well. In terms of appointing Supreme Court judges and encouraging people to think about when an opening might arise when they should be ready to become a candidate, this process is part of making that more visible, known and public, including this appearance and discussion we are having today and that will take place this afternoon.

We're making headway. It is now six years since this started in Canada, and as one who's been involved this time for the first time, I've been very impressed in how people have responded, including the deliberations that we're having here today.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

I have a minute left, so I have a quick question.

Minister Lametti, you mentioned the importance at the beginning of, to use your words, giving Canadians confidence and trust in the process. That is critically important. As you know, I practised before the courts in Ontario for over 20 years before going into politics, and I continue to be of the view that we have one of the greatest judicial systems in the world and anything that is done or said that insinuates that we don't, I take great offence to. There have been some questions even today nibbling around the edges about some of the process involved. Have any of the steps taken or any of the processes implemented in any way, shape or form jeopardized that reputation or the integrity of our courts?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I share your belief that we have the best court system in the world. I really believe that. It can be improved, but I believe we're starting from a pretty good place.

No, there was nothing in the process that I believe taints in any way the reputation of our courts. It's a non-partisan process, it's transparent, there were very high-quality people who applied and who were evaluated through the system, and the evaluators were outstanding. I am pleased with this process that we're currently undergoing as well.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

As am I.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

I want to thank all my colleagues and I want to thank Mr. Lametti and Mr. MacLauchlan for being here for this historic meeting.

We will—

Sorry. Mr. Anandasangaree has a point of order.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to take a moment to thank our clerk. I understand he will be leaving us as of September, so I wanted to thank him for his incredible service to this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

We once again get to thank Jean-François.

Thank you, Clerk.

That concludes this meeting.

We'll see many of you shortly, at two o'clock.

Thank you.