Justice Committee on Aug. 24th, 2022

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Could I...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Unfortunately—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Could I ask the committee—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I believe you'll have another round in a few minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

—if I could ask my question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

As chair, I can't enforce the answers. I can enforce only the time. I apologize.

We'll go over to Mr. Brock for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see you again, Minister Lametti, and welcome, Justice MacLauchlan. I'm very, very appreciative of your attendance today and your input.

I have a couple of areas I want to follow up on with respect to my colleague Rob Moore's questioning.

I've done a little bit of research with respect to some of the information that's available on the website of the Office of the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs Canada.

I understand, Minister Lametti, that once the short list is finalized, you are required to consult with a number of stakeholders—obviously, the Chief justice of Canada, which you've alluded to; relevant provincial and territorial attorneys general, which you've alluded to; relevant cabinet ministers, which you've alluded to; and opposition justice critics. What I haven't heard and what is clearly spelled out on the website is that you're also to consult with members of both the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights and the equivalent standing Senate committee.

My question for you, Minister Lametti, is this: Who in particular on the justice committee did you consult with?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Brock.

I don't have the report in front of me, but I will get that to you. We did in fact consult with members of both the House and Senate committees.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I can put it on the record right now that I was not consulted. I know that our justice critic, Rob Moore, was, but as far as the other standing members of the committee are concerned, I don't think anyone was consulted, so please look into that and advise us accordingly.

I know that there are big shoes to fill with the pending retirement of Justice Moldaver. Justice Moldaver has had a very distinguished legal career, not only as a leading expert when he was in private practice but also in serving as a leading expert on the bench with the Court of Appeal for Ontario and the Supreme Court with respect to his impeccable knowledge of criminal law matters.

Minister Lametti and Justice MacLauchlan, as you know, the Supreme Court of Canada, this year alone, pronounced two significant decisions with respect to life sentences and the extreme intoxication defences, which have received considerable commentary not only in the press but across Canada as well as discussions in the House of Commons.

What attributes and what specific experience level would Justice O'Bonsawin have to replace that considerable expertise of Justice Moldaver?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Obviously, criminal law is critically important to the docket of the Supreme Court and an expertise in criminal law is also extremely important to the docket of that court. I recall that when I was a clerk many years ago, it was like jumping in feet first to a pool of criminal law water, and I appreciated that experience very much.

Justice O'Bonsawin brings with her a knowledge of critically important parts of the criminal justice system, specifically mental health law, which is, and we understand to be, an increasingly important part of criminal justice, as well as an expertise on the application of Gladue principles, which is also extremely important to the sentencing portions of criminal justice. She also brings with her experience as a superior court justice in which she has had exposure to criminal law cases.

I would add though that it's the court's total responsibility, and not simply of one judge or one justice, to be an expert in criminal law. I'd point out that that court has an accumulated expertise in criminal law. As well, Justice Kasirer, who was a recent appointment, wrote and taught in the early stages of his teaching career in criminal law matters. I believe he wrote one of the decisions to which you just referred from this past summer.

There is an accumulated expertise on the court, and Justice O'Bonsawin is going to add to that expertise in criminal law.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, sir.

I also consulted with a number of victims groups across this country with respect to the vacancy in the position for the ombudsman for victims of crime. What specifically will you tell those organizations as to when this vacancy will be filled? The position has been vacant for approximately 11 months. The vacancy with respect to the Supreme Court was filled in less than two or three months, and that one is now 11 months.

What do you say about that, Justice Lametti?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

First of all, the office continues to function and has continued to function over these 11 months. It isn't a case that victims have not been supported. It is only a case of a vacancy of the presidency, the chair.

I appreciate that it is an important vacancy. I know that. As I alluded to in a previous question, I was expecting a renewal of that position. We were proceeding on that and then there was a change in that position. We have proceeded diligently with that process to replace that person. As I said, I hope that the announcement will be able to be made soon.

I can say that the office has remained open throughout this time and victims have been served throughout this time and the office has been very ably run by the number two person in that office. It hasn't been a case that victims have not been served. But I agree. We have pushed as hard as we can to fill that position as quickly as possible and it is proceeding.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Thank you, Mr. Lametti.

We'll now go over to Madam Brière.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, Chairperson of the independent advisory board, thank you for the work that has been done in the nomination process.

We have a number of reasons to be pleased today with this nomination. First, this is a woman, bringing the number of women on the Supreme Court to four. Second, this is the first indigenous woman to be appointed to the highest court in the land. She is also a Franco-Ontarian and fully bilingual. Finally, she is a legal expert in mental health rights.

As Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, I am pleased to note that the judge has a master's degree and a PhD, and that she has extensive knowledge and expertise in mental health rights.

Mr. MacLauchlan, you mentioned during your remarks that the chief justice was giving you guidance or direction as to what expertise is needed in court.

What is the weight of a candidate's legal and parallel skills?

[H. Wade MacLauchlan]

It is indeed a combination of factors. Personal skills, experience and professional qualifications must be considered. It important to understand that the Supreme Court of Canada is a court with general jurisdiction. One should always look for judges who are able to exercise expertise in a variety of areas.

You are absolutely right to point to Justice O'Bonsawin's expertise and experience in the field of mental health, especially with respect to the principles the Supreme Court outlined in the Gladue decision. This is a very important aspect of everything we need to consider for the country, as well as for criminal law.

Justice O'Bonsawin also has experience in the areas of labour and employment law, human rights and privacy law. She brings a range of experience to the court. All of that must be considered.

I believe you have done so yourself, but I encourage all Canadians who have not already done so to review the nominations that have been submitted, which are in the public domain, so that they can see what candidates who aspire to be Supreme Court justices must submit and what criteria they must meet.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

Minister, do you wish to add anything?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

As Mr. MacLauchlan just said, a set of criteria is considered. A court always has needs, requirements, that must be considered. But you also have to look at a candidate's other assets. You really have to look at the big picture.

You have to look at how the person could contribute to the functioning of the court, as well as to the development of case law, and come to make good decisions, based on case law.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

We also know that the three levels of courts have similarities, but also important differences.

How does the current selection process, which has been implemented over the past few years, assess the skills and abilities required to serve as a judge on the nation's highest court?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I will say the following before I yield the floor to Mr. MacLauchlan.

We look for sound judgment in a person. The Supreme Court sits to resolve, in some cases, conflicts between appellate courts on questions of law. It must set standards based on decisions that serve as precedents.

I think a person's judgment and wisdom are very important. In my opinion, they are the most important priorities.

[H. Wade MacLauchlan]

If I may, I would like to underline or add a point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Mr. MacLauchlan, unfortunately we're out of time in this round.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Madam Brière.

Next we'll go to Monsieur Fortin.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you said earlier that you consulted the Liberalist yesterday in anticipation of the questions I would ask.

What did you find out about Justice O'Bonsawin?