Justice Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Sharlene Bosma]

I don't feel it's enough, especially when you have multiple convictions. Eighteen months or two years is not enough. When you're talking three, four or however many victims and however many charges, there needs to be something that acknowledges every other family that has suffered at the hands of those people.

In our case, we just happened to be the first ones who went to trial. Tim was the last one killed, but we went first to trial. We got the first conviction, and that 25 years stands for him. It's not enough. It's an itty-bitty baby step in the right direction, but that will never be enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Bosma and Mr. Cooper.

Now we'll go to Ms. Dhillon for five minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am so very sorry, and the committee, I think, feels your sorrow as you speak. It's in your eyes. You're going to live with this grief for the rest of your lives, and you've conveyed that to us. Our heartfelt sympathies are with you.

I'd like to start with Ms. Andrews, please. You spoke about how difficult it was navigating the justice system when it came to victims' rights. What concrete steps can our government take to make sure that victims' rights are better explained to those who are pressing charges, who are going through the court system and who are trying to navigate their way through it? What can be done concretely to help them through this process?

[Morrell Andrews]

I think a big piece is information. Everyone approaches navigating the legal system a little differently. I'm very Type A, so I wanted to have every single piece of information I could possibly have. The problem was that it's all very piecemeal. Trying to understand the complexities of what a conditional discharge is versus a conviction, with all the terminology that comes at you, is really challenging. I think starting off with language as a basis could be really helpful. I don't know if a glossary of terms could be provided to victims or victim services workers. Just understanding the language of the legal system is really hard.

English is my first language. I reported in Ontario. If I was a francophone in Ontario, I don't know that I would have had the same access. If I was an immigrant to Canada and English was my third or fourth language, I truly do not know how it would be possible. I had a good experience compared with that of most people, and I thought even that experience would destroy me, but I'm here today.

As to the publication ban, the amendments that could be made for the use of publication bans are just one marginal change. It's one piece that I think I can be helpful on, but there are so many other issues, like paying for court transcripts. It cost me $500 to get my transcript. Paying for therapy is nearly $6,000 and counting.

Crown attorneys were too busy to speak with me after the conclusion of my case. They'll speak to you before, but after there's a guilty plea and a sentence, they have other things to do. Advocates who actually know the correct information are critical. My victim services person told me that my publication ban was automatic and it was something that happens to every single case, but that's not true.

Finally, the freedom of information requests with the police resulted in nothing. Everything was redacted.

There are few resources that are easy to navigate. For example, I didn't know there was such a thing as sexual assault and domestic violence leave in Ontario. I found out on Twitter that I could take it to show up to court.

If you are someone who does not have benefits through your employment, who faces systemic burdens or who feels that the police won't take you seriously, these are systemic issues. Victims are not adequately supported.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

In your opinion, who should be tasked with informing victims about publication bans and these types of aid, such as leave from work?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Answer very quickly, please.

[Morrell Andrews]

Right now, the Criminal Code says:

the presiding judge or justice shall...at the first reasonable opportunity, inform any...victim of the right to make an application for the order

In practice, this doesn't happen. A victim doesn't see a judge until way down the line, and publication bans are normally put in place at the first appearance of the accused in court, so it needs to be either the Crown attorneys or the victim services workers who are doing it.

I am not a member of the system or a legal practitioner, so I don't know the intricacies, but someone has to take responsibility because right now nobody is. We are harming people and putting people at risk. A victim in Kitchener-Waterloo was prosecuted last year for breaching her own publication ban. Someone has to tell us. I don't know exactly who, but somebody needs to.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.

Thank you to all the witnesses, from the bottom of our hearts. From all committee members, thank you for sharing your stories.

For others in the witness gallery who might have similar stories or are just hearing about this, I want to remind you that if you need any services, please contact the clerk, whose contact information you should all have.

Thank you once again for your testimony.

I'll suspend for a minute while we do audio checks and get our next witness ready.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Welcome to our new witness. Hopefully your headset is okay and you adjusted it to the right channel.

I will repeat this for our witness, who wasn't here earlier. Due to the sensitive nature of our discussion today, if anybody finds it difficult to listen to the testimony presented or experiences discomfort at the nature of the topic being discussed, I remind witnesses on Zoom or otherwise that they have the ability to use House resources. If you feel the need to do so, please contact the clerk.

Doctor, if necessary, take a pause. Don't feel rushed. Even though the time given to witnesses is five minutes, if you need a little extra time, please don't hesitate.

We have before us Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion, president and spokesperson of the Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims.

We'll go over to you for five minutes.

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion, President and Spokesperson, Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. I thank you and the esteemed members of the committee for having me here this afternoon to testify on the government's obligation to the victims of crime.

More than 1,000 days have passed since the day we saw missile attacks against a civilian airliner over the skies of Tehran. The murdered were 176 human beings and an unborn child. Brides and grooms were murdered. Children were murdered. Many of the passengers were students with promising futures for Canada and for Iran. They all lost their lives senselessly just over 1,000 days ago, a milestone we commemorated here on Parliament Hill just two days ago with a march and rally.

Where do we stand? Where does the world stand? Where is justice in all of the politics, legal wrangling, negotiations and bureaucracy?

The families of the victims were caught up in the aftermath of an atrocity that is unprecedented in the history of aviation. Despite their grief and anguish, the majority of the families have stood together along this unbearably difficult path. They have tried everything within their means to unveil the truth. The real stakeholders in this heinous crime have no power to decide, no rights to information and no place at the negotiation table—not even their legal representatives.

Within five hours after the shooting down of flight PS752, when bulldozers razed the site and destroyed evidence, the gears of justice should have engaged. From the moment it was clear that the IRGC fired the missiles that brought down flight PS752, the absurdity of leaving the investigation to the perpetrators must have been addressed. From the moment witnesses and victims’ families were harassed, intimidated and persecuted, an impartial international investigative body should have engaged with the whole affair.

The murdered included 55 Canadian citizens, and another 83 victims had close ties to Canada. However, despite our efforts, the RCMP has refused to date to open a domestic criminal case because the perpetrators of this crime will not co-operate with them.

It is my understanding from numerous conversations with people in the Canadian legal community, including a former minister of justice, that they have the power to do so. It is my hope that this committee can aid in pushing that forward.

The ICAO has yet to condemn the Islamic Republic’s breaches of its conventions, with an absurd claim of neutrality. We are pushing for them to do so when this new session opens, to finally right this gross oversight.

We don’t want to hear about the complexity and delicacy of the matter. We are the biggest stakeholders, and by now, more than 1,000 days later, we know all too well that the road to justice for us is not an easy, short or simple one.

We demand a clear road map with concrete action. We demand empathy backed up by real turns in the gears of justice. We are not lawyers, diplomats or politicians. We are a collective of grieving families that deserve reparations that include truth, justice and closure, not empty apologies or financial compensation.

Here is what must be done. One, our case must be tabled at the ICAO council without delay and with urgency, and we must prepare our case for the International Court of Justice. Two, Canada must support our submission in the International Criminal Court through a state referral or a support letter. Three, the RCMP must open a domestic criminal case in Canada. Four, the IRGC must be on the terrorist list without delay.

I call on parliamentarians of all parties and stripes to help us push forward in making these demands a reality. While I am here, let me also thank and commend all parties for working together with us on this to date. We have been grateful for your time and attention on this matter and for your show of support here, at the rally and at anniversaries past and future.

We shall continue our efforts with increasing resolve. Even after 1,000 days, we know that our pain, our shattered lives, our successes and even our failure to get results, unveil the truth and get justice can only pave the way for freedom and justice in Iran. No matter how long it takes, we stand firm for justice and human rights. We shall never forget, nor shall we ever forgive.

Thank you once again, and I welcome your questions on our work and mandate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you for that.

Now we'll go to Mr. Cooper for six minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Esmaeilion, it's good to see you again. When you appeared before the Subcommittee on International Human Rights in June, I asked you about the failure of the government to designate the IRGC as a terrorist entity. It's now four months later and still there's been no action. As you said, more than 1,000 days after PS752 was shot down and 85 Canadian citizens and permanent residents were murdered—a total of 176 passengers—there's still no action.

Can you speak to your frustration with the inaction? You met at the time with the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Obviously nothing progressed from that meeting.

From a victim's standpoint, can you speak to the fact that designating the IRGC a terrorist entity is not merely a symbolic gesture? From a victim's standpoint, it provides real teeth for victims to get justice, including allowing the Justice for Victims of Terrorism Act to be utilized.

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

When we hear that this legal case takes a long time, we say to the government, “Okay, if you want to wait, give us some good signals, positive signals, that you are serious about the case.” Putting the IRGC on the list is one of the signals.

It is a puzzle for us that the IRGC is not on the list. We know that the Quds Force is on the list already, but this is an external branch of the IRGC, and we all know who shot down the plane. The internal branch of the IRGC did it. This is an entity that murdered Zahra Kazemi and murdered Kavous Seyed-Emami, and right now, in the streets of Iran, it is the entity that shoots at innocent people.

If you are serious about justice and about this case, we believe you have to show some teeth on Iran. Putting the IRGC on the list is one of the basic steps that our government can take.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

In your testimony back in June, you also noted that your organization, on behalf of the victims, has provided or attempted to provide the government with a list of 50 individuals who are known to be involved in the shooting down of PS752. As of June, no action has been taken against them. The government had failed as of then to invoke Magnitsky sanctions. I believe no action has been taken now.

Can you confirm that no action has been taken and perhaps speak to that failure?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

A few days ago there was a list of organizations or individuals in Iran who were sanctioned by the Canadian government. I'm shocked that I don't see Ali Khamenei on the list. I'm shocked that I don't see the minister of global affairs, Mohammad Javad Zarif, on the list. I'm shocked that I don't see Ebrahim Raisi on the list, the current President of Iran.

We also had on the list the Civil Aviation Organization in Iran—the people who tried to cover up this crime—and the military court in Iran, as well as the military prosecutor of Tehran, the one who said to families that they killed their loved ones and that it was a good thing they did. These people should have been on the sanctions list.

We know the Minister of Foreign Affairs welcomed the new names, but the names were already there. We gave the names more than a year ago, in the summer of 2021, so we hope we will see Ali Khamenei, Mohammad Javad Zarif, Ebrahim Raisi and the rest of these individuals on the list pretty soon.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Back in June, you spoke about the IRGC and said it is active in Canada. I would submit that Canada could be characterized as a safe haven for the IRGC. Would you concur with that?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

There are reports that they do money laundering in this country, and if you noticed on the news in January of this year, there was a picture of one of the former IRGC commanders, Morteza Talaei. He was a former head of the police department in Tehran at the time of the killing of Zahra Kazemi.

He is the same individual who organizes so-called morality police in Iran, and he was in the GTA running on a treadmill. That was shocking news for Iranians. This is the tip of the iceberg, I think. This is the one we saw on the news and on social media, and I'm sure there are lots of these individuals related to IRGC.

We get a lot of messages from Iranian people right now saying that these people should be expelled from this country—and not only them but their families—because they are very smart in money laundering. Their assets or properties are probably not under their names. Their family members are involved in these kinds of crimes as well.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Finally, could you just speak to the harassment that the victims' families are experiencing here in Canada by the IRGC?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

Again, two reports have been published so far by CSIS, and it said that the families of the PS752 victims have been harassed and intimidated on Canadian soil. I can't add anything to that, but we have been threatened, we have been intimidated and this is ongoing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

Next we'll go to Mr. Ehsassi.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Ehsassi. Go ahead, for six minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a great honour to be back at the justice committee, albeit just for an hour.

Mr. Esmaeilion, welcome back to Ottawa. We have seen you do an incredible job advocating on behalf of the families, and it has now been well over two and a half years.

As you know, earlier this week our government announced that they were sanctioning high-ranking officials. Some of those names were names that you and the families had submitted for consideration. The minister has indicated that this is only a first step. Are there any Iranian officials on Canadian soil who are of particular interest to you and whom you would like to see sanctioned?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

Yes. I can mention one name that we have been asking for a long time to be expelled from this country, and that's Farhad Parvaresh, Iran's representative in the ICAO. He lives in Montreal with his family. This is the man who denied attacking PS752 in the first three days. This is the man who insulted our government by saying that they are lying and no attack happened. This is a man who has strong ties with the Quds Force.

There's a recording of Javad Zarif, the former foreign minister of Iran, saying that Farhad Parvaresh, at the time he was the head of Iran Air, co-operated with Qassem Soleimani to smuggle weapons and military personnel into Syria. This person is now in Montreal with his family.

We have asked several times to expel the ambassadors of Iran from European Union countries and from other countries. The Islamic Republic of Iran has an embassy here. The point we can start from is here, with Farhad Parvaresh in Montreal.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that. That was very helpful. I will make sure that I bring it up with department officials.

As you know, it has been three weeks now that we have seen brave Iranians take to the streets in cities across Iran.

Given that there is discussion about the IRGC—and I know you care deeply about this issue—would you mind sharing with members of this committee what the IRGC is doing to protesters on the streets in various cities in Iran?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

Before I answer that question, Mr. Ehsassi, I want to bring forward the five names of the brave young women who were killed by the IRGC: Mahsa, Nika, Hadis, Hannaneh and Sarina. All of them were between 16 and 22. These are young, brave women. They go to the streets, and they shout for their freedom. They fight back.

We have to show that we stand with them. We see the horrible videos coming from Iran of the IRGC and their operatives, and the plain clothes thugs they have. They are attacking these innocent people, unarmed citizens, and they kill them. It's unbelievable that the free world doesn't react the way they should.

It's good to have the flag of Iran on Parliament Hill; it's good to have the flag of Iran at Niagara Falls, but these are just symbolic. We need some concrete actions to show them that we support them, and putting IRGC on the list is a good step to show to Iranians that we are serious about justice and human rights.