Justice Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Just to reiterate, minister has said that this is a first step, and that's why your testimony is so valuable. Thank you for that.

We have all heard reports of how you and other members of the association have been intimidated on Canadian soil. Could you share some anecdotes with members of this committee?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

Yes. I remember probably 18 months ago somebody calling me and saying, “Let's talk about the last moments of your wife and your daughter.” I reported that to the police.

Most recently, probably four or five months ago, we had a campaign against a friendly soccer game in Canada. I went to the grocery store. When I came back I had two flat tires.

We have had suspicious cars around our houses, and not only me. Other family members have had this experience as well. We have reported every single incident to the police. I know the RCMP has opened an investigation into foreign interference, but I have no idea about the details.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

You have mentioned that the IRGC should be on that list as well. As you know, there are some legal implications that could ensnare people who are innocent. However, you are saying that the IRGC should still be on that list and that we should proceed with listing them. Is that correct?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

Yes, and I've heard about the complexities of the case. I've heard from the government that, for people who have gone through military service in Iran, it makes it a little difficult.

As a boy, when you turn 18, you have to go into military service in Iran. The army and the IRGC are the main military parts you go through. Statistically, I think more than two million people have gone through this with the IRGC. I don't know how many of them are in Canada. It's probably 10,000 or 15,000, I assume.

With an exemption letter that exempts them from this.... If you go into military service in Iran, you can't pass first lieutenant; there's a special ranking for you. We can exempt those people. We have talked to several lawyers, and this is a simple solution for putting the IRGC on the list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Ehsassi.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Esmaeilion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Next is Monsieur Fortin for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Esmaeilion. Earlier, I didn't quite understand the figure. There were 176 victims of this attack. How many Canadians were among those 176 victims?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

It was 55 Canadian citizens and 30 permanent residents, so in total 138 people had ties to Canada.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

All right.

Of course, our sympathies are with the families of these victims.

How can we help them? I understand that the procedure is important to you. I also share your concern about the listing of terrorist organizations.

Besides this aspect, how can Canada help the families of these victims? Was anything done? Is there anything else that you think should be done?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

The main goal for the families has been finding the truth and getting justice. There are two main international bodies to take care of these cases. One is the International Court of Justice, and the other is the International Criminal Court.

Canada didn't show any interest in going to the International Criminal Court. On September 14 of this year, the Association of Families submitted their complaint to the International Criminal Court independently, and that's why we asked our government to write a supporting letter for us, and also the governments of Ukraine, Sweden and the U.K.—the four affected countries.

The other way that Canada can pursue this is going to the International Civil Aviation Organization and, down the road, the International Court of Justice. That's what Canada has taken seriously.

So far, after 1,000 days, we have no road map; we have no time frame. When we asked for the IRGC to be put on the list and asked for sanctions on the perpetrators of this crime, we only asked for good signals, for the families, that show that our government is serious about this.

As I said, the families have said no to compensation. They have said no to apologies from the Islamic Republic of Iran. Honestly, you can't even expect an apology from Ali Khamenei. He's not the kind of person who apologizes to Canadian people. He has to be on the sanctions list. This is one of the first steps.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

I understand that listing these people and the organization could provide a way to grieve or ensure that the criminals are punished for their actions. As with any crime, there is indeed a legal process that is or can be initiated against the person committing the crime. In this case, it is understood that members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps should be on this list, as should Ali Khamenei and a number of leaders. These are mostly procedures to punish these people for the crime they have committed and it is right that this be done.

My question was more about whether these families need care from psychologists. Do they need financial help because they have lost someone who brought income to the family? What do they need besides sanctions? What has been done to help them so far?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

I can say that in the beginning when this happened, our government financially helped the families of citizens and permanent residents, but the rest of the families that had ties to Canada were not on the list for financial help.

As for psychological help, I've asked several times for psychological help, because the majority of families suffer from PTSD and depression. I can give you an example: MH17, the Malaysian airliner that was downed in 2014. I'm in touch with those families, Air India families and others. I know that after this happened, three universities in the Netherlands came forward and supported the families for five years.

We never had this kind of service here. The RCMP said that we could be on the victim services list. For example, they call me on Father's Day or Christmas Day and just share their sympathy with me.

We have kids who were affected. We have mothers and fathers. Some of them are not in Canada. It's very difficult to help them. That's why our association asked some professionals to come and help these families in the language they speak.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Let's go back to the issue of sanctions, to finish.

The minister has so far refused to list the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps on the grounds that it could cause harm to innocent people.

To your knowledge, are there any other reasons that have been given in your discussions with the minister's office for this still not being done as we speak?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

That's the only thing I've heard about the military service people and that's it.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Esmaeilion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

Next is Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I want to start by thanking Dr. Esmaeilion for being with the committee today.

The scope of the questions we're dealing with is somewhat broader than what we normally see on the justice committee. I think your testimony today and your very practical suggestions for what we could do to put more pressure on the Iranian government are quite useful in this study of victims.

I want to say at the outset that in addition to the tragedy—not the tragedy but the crime—of bringing down PS752, we have repeated human rights offences being committed by the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. These include what seems to be a ramping up of attacks on women for not adhering to very specific behavioural guidelines that the corps seems to think are essential for Iranian society.

We saw the death of Mahsa Amini and the subsequent protests. The Committee to Protect Journalists estimates that at least 35 reporters have been detained since then. The Associated Press reports more than 1,900 arrests of protesters. The Oslo-based Iran Human Rights group has pointed to the killing of at least 154 protesters.

We see these activities of the Revolutionary Guard also extending to the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community in Iran. Just a week ago, a large group of UN human rights experts called for the staying of the execution of two women, Zahra Sedighi-Hamadani and Elham Choubdar, both of whom are accused of promoting homosexuality and were sentenced to death.

There's a broad-ranging spectrum of human rights violations that we can hold the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps responsible for, so my question for you, Dr. Esmaeilion, is this: Have there been any attempts by the victims' families to work with other human rights advocates to put broader pressure on the Iranian government, which is so clearly a state sponsor of terrorism and a major violator of human rights?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

What we believe at our association is that we are part of the chain of 43 years of crimes—crimes against humanity and war crimes. We are not an exception. We see ourselves as a part of the victims of these 43 years.

Last week there was a big rally around the world, and our association was involved in that rally. We helped organizers in every single country in the world have a rally for freedom for Iran. When we started to organize that, it was only for eight cities in Canada, the United States and European countries, but the Iranian people welcomed it, and it extended to 155 small and big cities around the world. This was not just for PS752; it was for all victims of the Iranian regime. This is what people can do.

For the last 43 years, the Iranian people have tried to trust the free world to help them, but this time is different. That's why they fight back against the operatives of the regime. Now they act independently and are not relying on the politicians of the free world, in my opinion.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I would like to ask you a question that is perhaps not a fair question to ask. In light of the failure to take more concrete actions in Canada, what do you think is the cause of this? There seems to be broad consensus that more needs to be done, yet the government has failed to take some of the very specific actions that you suggested. Do you have any possible explanation as to why there is hesitancy?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

I've had a lot of meetings with everyone you can imagine in government who is related to this case, even in the U.K., Sweden and Ukraine. From what I hear, because of the process of legal action against the Islamic Republic of Iran, they had to pass the negotiation phase. On January 5, 2022—this year—they said that negotiation with Iran was futile.

I think the core people in Global Affairs—not elected officials, but mainly the legal teams or the advisers—still believe in negotiation with Iran. They don't see the Iranian regime as a mafia group. If you change your mindset—you are not negotiating with Switzerland or a democratic country—then it would solve the problem.

For example, there was a soccer game planned this spring in Canada, and my simple question to them was, “Do you see North Korea playing hockey in this country?” I heard the answer, “That's North Korea.” I said that was the problem: We don't see the Islamic Republic of Iran in the same way as North Korea and Russia. These rogue states should be treated equally. You should not exempt the Islamic Republic of Iran from the list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison and Dr. Esmaeilion.

Next is Mr. Genuis for five minutes. Welcome to the justice committee.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Dr. Esmaeilion, for being here, for being the voice of your family and other families and for being a voice magnifying the experience and suffering of people in Iran, in the region and all over the world who have, as you've said, been suffering for decades under the oppression of this regime.

Of course, the violence of the regime didn't start with the downing of flight PS752 and didn't end with the downing of flight PS752. As you know, about two years before that, we had a motion adopted in Parliament to immediately list the IRGC as a terrorist organization. The evidence was well sufficient at that time, prior to some of the more recent events. In fact, the government voted for it but then failed to implement it.

The first question I want to ask kind of builds off this discussion of listing the IRGC as a terrorist organization. Do you know what the government's position is on this? I don't, and we've been trying to ask the government about it. They voted for this motion but no action was taken. There are these messages pushed out with excuses. I hope you have regular access to ministers. I hope you are able to ask these questions and hear back.

Is the government planning to list the IRGC, planning not to list the IRGC or thinking about listing the IRGC? It's been four years since the motion and 1,000 days since the downing of the flight. Do you know what the Government of Canada's position is on this?

[Dr. Hamed Esmaeilion]

As I said, it's a puzzle for me, and my answer is no, I don't know.

What I said is that every government is responsible for acting against the Islamic regime. If we had done enough when Zahra Kazemi was killed, Dr. Seyed-Emami would be alive today. If we had done enough when Dr. Seyed-Emami was killed, PS752 wouldn't have been shot. If they don't see a resolute, firm reaction from our government, I think the Islamic Republic of Iran will continue to commit crimes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It is frustrating and dishonest when you have a political party trying to push a sort of great fog over a position on a critical issue. If they're not going to list the IRGC, they should explain why. I think they should list them, but they should own up to their position.

You presented some names that you would like to see on a sanctions list. I want to mention that Bill C-281, which is a private member's bill from my colleague Philip Lawrence, will be debated tomorrow. It seeks to amend the Sergei Magnitsky Law to create a provision whereby a parliamentary committee can nominate someone for sanctions. That would allow, for instance, the foreign affairs committee to nominate some of the individuals from of your list, or all of them perhaps, to the government. Then it would require the government to provide a response to that nomination.

We're talking about listing the IRGC, but it's also notable that nobody connected with the Iranian regime was ever added to the Sergei Magnitsky Law. It may be that this will change in the coming days. We don't know, but we had the first step taken after so much inaction, apparently.

Are there changes you would like to see to Canada's sanctions regime to strengthen it and give parliamentarians more of a voice in being able to push forward names on the list?