Justice Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's unfortunate that it's our last day of testimony and Dr. Sharpe is not able to be with us. I know the committee has made good-faith efforts to try to get her here. There were some family tragedies that prevented her from testifying.

I want to know whether we have received a brief from Dr. Sharpe. Maybe the clerk can let us know.

We have not received a brief. I will also endeavour to get a brief.

Her work deals with the overrepresentation of Black people and people of colour as victims of homicide in the greater Toronto area. It's something we haven't heard very much about at the committee. I think it's important that we try to get some testimony through a brief from her.

Ms. Ouellette, you made mention of this overrepresentation of racialized and marginalized people as victims of crime, in particular sexual assault. Can you say a bit more—not necessarily statistics—about that overrepresentation that you see in your work?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

We know that people with disabilities of any kind, immigrants and LGBTQ2S individuals experience more sexual violence.

It's a way for the attacker to show their power and superiority. If there was ever a way to take someone's power away, it's sexual assault. It can be seen in the power dynamics affecting members of various social groups. A person will sexually assault a lesbian woman because she's a lesbian, or an indigenous woman because she's indigenous. It goes hand in hand with the sexual assault experience.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We have had some discussion at this committee on the question of coercive and controlling behaviour. The committee has unanimously recommended to the government that coercive and controlling behaviour should be made a criminal offence.

Can you say something about what percentage of people you see who are victims of sexual violence from intimate partners and whether coercive and controlling behaviour has played a part in that sexual violence?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

Many of the clients we see experience partner violence, but we also see a lot of people who experienced violence as children, including incest. There's no doubt that coercive behaviour leads to escalating violence.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You said that over time you'd seen some improvement in the reaction of police to sexual assault victims. You talked a little about training. Are there other factors, like changes in the composition of the police or other things, as well as training, that might have contributed to that improvement?

If there is improvement in policing, we might be able to apply those same things in other parts of the justice system.

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

When I started 20 years ago, a police officer told me that three-quarters of sexual assault complaints were baseless. Coming from a police officer, that surprised me. I don't think you hear those types of comments as much today. I would say the training investigators and others get is working fairly well. In some cases, victims are allowed to ask for a female investigator or police officer when giving their statement. That has a positive effect.

Training leads to better behaviour. We have seen cases, though, in which police officers did not interpret the guidelines properly, leading to a confrontation with the victim. It wasn't great, but overall, the training is helping.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

In the people you see in your work, is there an awareness of the existence of victims' rights in Canada before you are able to work with them? In other words, do victims have some idea that they might have some rights, even if they're not totally effective?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

I would say that the clients we work with rarely understood their rights beforehand. One of our roles is to educate them and help them better understand their rights. Often, they have heard of crime victims compensation. When they come to us, they think they may be able to apply for compensation, but they don't know what that means or how the program works. In those cases, we guide them through the process.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I just want to thank you for your testimony today. I think you expressed some doubt that you were bringing something valuable to the committee. I think all members of the committee would agree that, in particular, your emphasis on understanding the nature of trauma with sexual assault victims and how the system fails in that is very important evidence for the committee. Thank you very much for being here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Next we have Mr. Caputo.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Caputo. You have five minutes for the second round.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you. It's a pleasure and an honour to be here. Thank you to our witness.

I was a prosecutor. I focused primarily on sexual offences and particularly sexual offences against children, so it's a real honour to be here.

I'm going to ask you about three tangible things, and I know we may not get through these in the next five minutes.

We're talking about steps that can be taken. Sometimes we talk in the macro, the big picture. What I want to talk about is section 535 of the Criminal Code, for instance, about preliminary inquiries, which means that people testify twice. Second is video testimony. Section 486.2 of the Criminal Code allows somebody to testify from outside of the courtroom. Last, if we can get to it, is the adoption of a statement under section 715.1 of the Criminal Code.

I'm not sure if a lot of people are aware of this, but a preliminary inquiry is designed to ensure that there is enough evidence to go to trial. Now, preliminary inquiries were abolished for people who were charged with offences with 10 years or less in jail. Interestingly, sexual assault against an adult is a maximum sentence of 10 years in jail, so the person who is accused of that offence does not have the right to a preliminary inquiry. If that sexual offence or sexual interference occurs against a child, for instance, the maximum sentence is 14 years in jail under the code.

What I'm saying is this. A child who brings forward an allegation of sexual assault by indictment has to testify twice, and an adult who may bring forward that same allegation testifies once. This clearly makes no sense, does it?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

Unfortunately, I'm not an expert on cases involving children. What you're telling me, though, certainly doesn't seem to make sense. The bulk of my clients are women and teenage girls, so I won't venture an answer. Sorry, I'm not familiar enough with the specifics.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Fair enough. It would apply to anybody under 18, generally.

The second area is that a child who gives evidence is permitted to testify outside of a courtroom. In law, we call this a “presumptive application”. It's made under section 486.2 of the Criminal Code. If a judge hears that application, they are presumed to make it, or they should make it, unless they have a really good reason. I'm using my own words here. The same doesn't go for adults who testify. We hear about trauma and people who are.... When you see the person who has offended against you, it must be incredibly triggering. An adult can still make that application to testify outside of a courtroom, but when it comes to children, it is what we call “presumptive”. It's almost always made.

Do you think that if the application was presumptive with respect to adults—in this case, that it should be made—this would help adult victims? It would give them the right to testify from outside of a courtroom, and that would be presumed. There wouldn't be that initial fight. Essentially, the law is recognizing that you're already alleged to have been through so much trauma that we are not going to bring you face to face with the accused, but you are just as much part of the process. In your view, would that be of assistance?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

It's hard to be opposed to that. Having seen a teenage girl give her testimony via a recording so that she didn't have to be present in the courtroom, I know the process works and takes a bit of pressure off the victim.

With respect to adult women, they can of course experience a significant amount of stress and they do have the option of obtaining authorization to record their testimony. Some women want to be there in person to face their attacker, but others find it too difficult. That provision can definitely be helpful to victims.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That's my experience as well, that some people want to be present.

That brings me to the third point. I think it's what you're referring to. It's under another provision of the code, section 715.1. It's that a child can actually give a statement to a police officer. If that statement is recorded—again, I'm simplifying this—and they say “Yes, I made that statement, and that statement is accurate”, then they don't have to retell their story. In other words, the statement itself is played. It is the telling of the story. It goes in place of the evidence. That applies only to children.

In the cases of sexual assault against adults, do you think that this would also be an effective measure to assist—not only in the trial process but also in the facilitation of not retraumatizing the victim?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Unfortunately, Mr. Caputo, we're out of time. We'll have to wait on that.

Ms. Brière, go ahead for five minutes.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Ouellette. Thank you for being here and sharing your insight with us.

You said in your opening statement that you provided prevention and advocacy services, and that your expertise was in survivors of sexual assault. You also said that those women had limited access to justice, whether because of barriers in criminal law or because of human and social factors.

What do these women want from you when they come to the centre? What are they looking for from your organization?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

First and foremost, we provide them with support.

Second, our centre provides two very important things to people who have been sexually assaulted. We acknowledge what they have been through and we believe them. We tell them that what happened to them is not their fault. That's an important piece.

Those two important things will determine whether they turn to the justice system or not. Those are two key stepping stones on the path to healing, as they take back control of their lives. Believing that they did nothing to bring this on is crucial. Unfortunately, the way the system is designed, victims are often made to think that they may have somehow been responsible for what happened to them. Victims don't need to hear that again.

What matters most is telling them that we know what happened to them is not their fault. That's really what they're looking for when they come to the centre. We cover that in our prevention efforts, in the assistance we provide and in our advocacy work.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

What are the roadblocks in the legal process?

Why don't victims come forward?

How do they react to the whole process?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

They are very afraid of being judged. They are afraid of being asked questions about why they went to the attacker's home or how they were dressed.

They are very afraid of being judged. They are also afraid of not being believed.

In working with them, we often tell them that, if their goal is to break their silence, that alone is a big deal; it doesn't matter whether their complaint goes any further or not. If their goal is to see their attacker behind bars, it's harder to make that happen. Regardless, we help victims set a goal that will bring them satisfaction, no matter what the outcome.

We try to make them see that breaking their silence is a huge accomplishment on its own.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

You implemented PADI, a program for people with disabilities.

Can you give us a few more details on the realities these individuals face in a sexual assault situation? What can you do for them?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

PADI is a program we haven't given in quite some time. It's primarily for individuals with developmental disabilities. They are very likely to experience sexual violence because they are dependent on others, including caregivers.

These are also people who receive little to no sexuality education, as if they couldn't possibly have a sex life. Silence around sexuality education leaves a lot of room for a potential abuser. We try to support them, guide them and, as much as we can, provide them with sexuality education.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you feel the current justice system allows people with developmental disabilities to submit and direct a complaint?

Do they receive enough support?

[Marie-Hélène Ouellette]

No.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you have any idea what could be done to better assist them?

What's missing from the range of services offered to them?