Evidence of meeting #31 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victim.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marie-Hélène Ouellette  Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

11:50 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

They always assess the victim's credibility. A prosecutor assessing the credibility of a victim with developmental disabilities will find it harder to believe they are telling the truth.

I have no positive cases to report in that respect.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Ms. Brière.

Next we have Monsieur Fortin for two and a half minutes.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Ouellette, I don't have a lot of time. So I'm going to start at the end and thank you for coming here today. You have provided compelling and significant testimony.

My colleague Mr. Caputo said it was possible to testify outside the room, as we allow children to do. Testimony can be given remotely, by videoconference or otherwise. The question arises: Couldn't adult victims be given the same privilege as children?

I don't know much about your field, but do some victims ever prefer to confront their abuser? Looking their abuser in the eye can them give them a sense they're taking control of their lives again. Does that happen or do most victims instead prefer not to face their abuser?

11:50 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

People have many different realities. We're dealing with human beings. Some do want to take back their power by standing up and looking their abuser in the eye. In doing so, they also feel they're taking back their dignity. For others, dignity is more about protection and withdrawal.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

At CALACS, you come face to face with these situations. You are on the front line in terms of helping victims. Can you tell me approximately what percentage of people don't want to confront their abuser? Is it the majority of them, like 90%? Is it about 50‑50? What's the percentage, in your opinion?

11:50 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

I think it's 50‑50. I haven't looked into this, but I feel it's a pretty even split.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Does it help victims to face their abuser and give them a piece of their mind? Over and above the legal aspect, can it be therapeutic for the victim?

11:50 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

Yes, absolutely. It's really a step toward taking back their power. In fact, that's why restorative justice works. It happens when victims can assert themselves and say what they have to say. At our centre, we ask victims to write letters to confront their abuser. We draw their abuser on the wall and ask the victim to practice by reading their letters to them. It's part of this extraordinary reclaiming of their power.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you.

I probably only have a few seconds left. Quickly, CALACS—

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

You're actually over time, Mr. Fortin. Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much.

We had some very powerful testimony a few days ago from women who had been victims of sexual assault and who wanted to have the law changed so that they could be public and have their own names, but also, therefore, so the perpetrators' names become public. In your experience, do you believe it would be a good change to make to give victims that choice?

11:50 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

If I remember the testimony correctly, they said they wanted to have the choice. It's part of them taking back their power. Victims want to be able to choose to come forward publicly or not, and be protected. The key is having the choice.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

When you're the only witness in a panel, you get a bit more of an intense experience with the committee than others do.

In the remaining minute or so, I wonder if there's anything that you feel you didn't get to say before the committee today and that you would like to add.

11:55 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

I've said pretty much everything I wanted to say.

I'm very grateful that committee members are focused on this issue and acknowledging its significance. You were open to broadening the discussion and you didn't confine yourselves to the victims bill of rights. I'm pleased you were able to hear broader testimony on the issue and the barriers to achieving justice.

I think that's perfect.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

I'll go next to Tako Van Popta.

Welcome to the committee today, Mr. Van Popta.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Thank you. I didn't realize I had an opportunity for a question. I'm so happy that I do.

Ms. Ouellette, thank you for being here. Your testimony has been very helpful for the committee in talking about victims of sexual assault.

You highlighted the trauma that victims have to go through when testifying in court, and that perhaps a better way to conduct criminal trials would be to shift the burden of proof away from the Crown, the other way around. A couple of my colleagues have pointed out that this would be a significant change from our tradition in the way we run criminal trials.

My question is whether there would be a middle way or a third option so that, at the victim's choice, the trial might be focused on restorative justice rather than a criminal conviction.

11:55 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

I really look at the impact of the trauma they experience. It isn't necessarily accomplished with a conviction. A conviction doesn't always make someone feel better. However, victims should have better access to restorative justice. We know it works and that somehow it soothes them.

I have a fair amount of confidence in the restorative justice process. It's still emerging and it's not fully established, but I still trust in the process.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Thank you very much for that. Would you be able to provide this committee with some examples where restorative justice has been very effective in dealing with the traumatic experiences victims have had? That would be very helpful for us.

I have a second question. It's about education for judges. In the last Parliament, we passed a law that all judges must take sexual assault case training, because not all judges are like my colleague Mr. Caputo. Some were lawyers like me in a previous life, doing land subdivision work. Education, of course, is always good.

What do you say about judges having to take mandatory sexual assault case training?

11:55 a.m.

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

First, I will give you an example of restorative justice.

I'm thinking of a woman who went through a restorative justice process with an abuser other than her own abuser. For this victim, speaking up and explaining the impact of the assault to the perpetrator of a related crime had a very positive impact on her taking her power back, which I mentioned.

In addition, hearing an abuser admit guilt also contributes to healing. It's quite effective. Even if her own abuser didn't take responsibility, the victim heard another abuser acknowledge what he did to someone else.

With respect to judicial education, no one could possibly be against better training being provided. I see it as a transformative factor that addresses current barriers, if only through a better understanding of the impact of trauma on victims.

Noon

Conservative

Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chair.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

Next, we go to Ms. Dhillon for five minutes.

October 17th, 2022 / noon

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Good afternoon, Ms. Ouellette. Thank you for being with us today.

Several of us are asking you questions and you're our only witness, so thank you very much.

I'll start with your testimony. You said that victims sometimes fear submitting a complaint or are hesitant to do it.

Is counselling available to them or could it be available to them? How can service be improved?

Noon

Coordinator and Case Worker, L'Élan, Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel

Marie-Hélène Ouellette

As I said before, they need support.

I work in a community organization. I know that there are about 30 organizations like mine in Quebec and Ontario. There are fewer of them in the other provinces. I can't tell you the exact state of services across the country, but more support for victims is certainly needed. The prevalence of sexual assault is extremely high among Canadians, both male and female—men and boys can be victims as well—and the impact on victims' lives is so great that they need support. Institutions like the health care system and its facilities are under so much strain right now that they're struggling to provide specialized services of this nature. Therefore, victims prefer to find someone else to help them.