Justice Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Elene Lam]

I would say it is a mistake or an illusion to say that this law allows sex workers to continue to work. Particularly for Asian and migrant sex workers, even some who are permanent residents, because of the language barrier and also because they do not have enough income, a third party or the client is often their very important support system. For example, they may need someone to help them advertise or communicate with clients, but everything has become illegal.

I think there is an extra layer because the anti-trafficking investigation always involves the CBSA. We see many anti-sex work investigations turn into anti-migrant. With the immigration policy now, even people with temporary work permits are not allowed to work in the sex industry.

That's why for us it's very important to have the law protect the sex workers' safety, but at the same time, we keep saying this is also about their work and their livelihood. It's also about the agency of the worker. They should have the right to make decisions about their life and about their work. When we hear other speakers say how they are so happy to shut down a massage parlour, we have so many workers crying and so many workers feeling so helpless and frustrated when they've lost their income.

This whole criminalization has put the sex worker in a position from which they cannot seek any help. Very importantly, help is not only from the police. A lot of mutual support systems are being criminalized, and they cannot protect them.

We also need to recognize whether people really, truly want to end violence against sex workers or whether they want to end sex work. Ending sex work will not bring safety to the sex worker. Removing the criminal law can help the sex worker work more safely. This is the law that makes people feel afraid to move forward, because we have seen so many workers arrested and investigated when they contact the police.

One of the workers has been assaulted four times, and she does not even want to scream, because she is so worried that the police will come. The police just arrested her friend, and her friend got deported.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

What you're really telling us is that it's not just a fear of deportation, but that deportation actually takes place very frequently for sex workers.

[Elene Lam]

Yes, we have a lot of [Technical difficulty—Editor] and we document it. Also for people with permanent residency, because this is a criminal charge, they will also lose their immigration and they are deported. This is not a fear. This is what actually happens. We have lots of documents about that.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You say you've done a report on that. I would ask that you table that report with the committee so we have the benefit of that for our deliberations. That would be much appreciated.

[Elene Lam]

This is also in police statements. They explicitly say that they call CBSA and deport the sex worker.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

In your original presentation, you said something very similar to what the representative from Stella said. It goes something to the effect that if you treat all sex work as violence, you miss the real violence.

Could you say some more about how that plays out in reality?

[Elene Lam]

We really want to differentiate. It's just like domestic violence. Not all husbands abuse women. Some husbands abuse women, but we do not call for criminalizing marriage. We really need to differentiate that sex work itself is not violent, but people take advantage of sex work being criminalized to use violence against sex workers. That's what we really need to address.

When there is the conflation, you cannot differentiate who is the good boss or who is the bad boss, and you cannot differentiate what is a good client and what is a bad client. Actually, there are a lot of clients who are important in sex workers' support system. When they need to go to the hospital, they give them rides. They also provide different social supports and connect them to different social services organizations. Of course, income is also a very important part.

This is very important. We need to differentiate: Sex work is not violence. The stigma and the criminalization make sex workers become targets of violence. That's why it's so important to differentiate. When you see them as the same, you cannot see the real violence.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Would you say the same is true of conflating sex work with trafficking, and that therefore you will miss people who are actually being trafficked and have lost their agency?

[Elene Lam]

Yes, as I said, trafficking or exploitation and violence happen in different industries, like farming or factory work, but we do not criminalize that. We know that labour protection, migrant protection, is the way we can address the violence. This is very important. We don't conflate sex work with human trafficking. That's how we really need to differentiate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Next is Mr. Morrison for five minutes.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Kent, an interesting answer came up. I just wonder if you can expand a bit on it. It's about the exploiters who are convincing especially the youth to fear the police. I know that youths who are 12 and 13 years old are extremely impressionable and have a very difficult time making a decision on their own. They're convinced that the police are going to be the “bad person”. I'm just wondering if you can expand upon that statement.

[Lynne Kent]

It's even bigger than that. Certainly, we have seen cases in which the exploiter has engaged that youth in other crimes, such as smuggling guns or drugs, and in one case even murder, where they were being considered as an accessory to murder. This is then held over their head. Even simple theft is held over their head: “You don't want to go to the police. You'll go to jail because of what you did.”

It's intentional. It's very intentional. They don't want those sex workers going to the police. They don't want to be exposed for the harm.

You know, I absolutely agree with Ms. Lam on so many points. I have seen and heard testimony directly from individuals on what is happening to them, but I just want to go back and say that it isn't the law that is creating a fear of police. It is being told that you can't trust the police and that you can't go to the police.

I'm not totally defending the police. We also know that the police have been complicit. When we look at the profile of the buyers, we see lawyers, doctors, teachers, professionals, police officers—people with influence and power. They are a big part of the demand and the exploitation. So it's understandable that people are afraid of them.

What I come back to is that all of us need to look at what the intent is of the law and make sure it is addressing and meeting its intent. Its intent is very wonderful. Addressing the demand is important. When you decriminalize, when you grant impunity to the buyers and the exploiters, they become more violent. We see it. We have evidence of that all over the world. I can say we have evidence of that in Vancouver. It's really political will that has held our police back. They recognize, they value, and I think they have guidelines that are very compassionate. They understand how to address the issues of exploitation in the most careful and supportive way, but there's no political will to support them, fund them and provide the resources to make sure that our police, all our enforcement services, are addressing the intent of the law.

There are the provisions and then there is the operation. We need to marry those.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

You brought up another issue. It is important that everyone understands the difficulty there is, even in law enforcement, of different cultures in different areas. The Lower Mainland has a variety. It is very difficult.

I've worked with the Surrey crime units and the Surrey human trafficking units. When they have a social worker helping them when they go out to talk to especially the girls, it is just so much more powerful. Trust is built. I think going to the public safety committee to address some of the training.... I know the police are trying their best. It is really difficult.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Morrison.

Mr. Anandasangaree, it's over to you.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the panellists for being here, and I want to start by acknowledging that I'm speaking to you from the traditional lands of the Algonquin people.

Ms. Lam, I'd like to probe a bit further with regard to undocumented sex workers. Can you maybe talk about your experience with both the IRCC and the CBSA, and about the enforcement or threats of enforcement that undocumented workers have faced? Maybe you can share your experience and perspective on what impact that has on reporting.

[Elene Lam]

Many non-status people already have lots of challenges working with law enforcement, but for sex workers, because of the sex worker law, there are more and more opportunities to have unwanted contact with law enforcement. For example, often the undocumented sex worker is arrested because there is lots of training about identifying trafficking victims, so their neighbours will call CBSA or the police to say there is an Asian next door. Then when the police come and check their ID, they are arrested. Of course, they have also been asked if someone has taken their money, if someone has answered their phone. Sometimes sex workers will work together, so some people may help one person answer the phone, then the other may help other people transfer money to the bank, so all of this increases the issue of vulnerability.

In Hamilton, for example, we see that CBSA, the City of Toronto and bylaw officers often have joint enforcement, with no trafficking being identified but the sex worker being arrested and deported. This has also happened in other cities. We also see how racial profiling plays out in this process, and many law enforcement members keep saying they assume Asian workers are vulnerable, so they target and identify Asian sex workers' advertisements and go there. The impacts are on not only the undocumented but also those who are documented.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

What is the impact on those who have documents?

[Elene Lam]

It's like racial profiling. Also, when we talk about the fear of the police, they are not being told to fear the police. They really are fearful of the police, because the law can be used against them and to arrest them. We see that this is happening. Often, the police use criminal law to detain the worker, and they call CBSA to arrest them. Even those who have documents, who have immigration status and who are allowed to work in Canada are still illegal because of immigration prohibition, and they will be kicked out of Canada even if they have a temporary status. Because this is a crime, those who have permanent residence can also be deported. People are not just listening to others' fears about law enforcement. It's their experience and they know that the police are not helpful but dangerous to them. In our research and a lot of the research on sex workers, police and law enforcement are among the major perpetrators against sex workers. They also use the law to take advantage of sex workers and to abuse them.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

On undocumented workers, can you talk about the types of services that are available, things like health care? I know, for example, that the City of Toronto has a don't ask, don't tell policy with respect to status. Can you elaborate on the types of supports available, particularly relating to health and in terms of STDs or any other types of medical supports that may be required during their work?

[Elene Lam]

Social supports, including health, social services and legal clinic support, are very important for undocumented workers. Despite the City of Toronto having the access without fear policy, we see that it is not often enforced, and we still have workers who, when they call because they're experiencing violence, are arrested. It is very important to note that this law and the criminalization of sex work create a barrier for sex workers, whether documented or undocumented, to accessing service providers, including health services.

Butterfly is playing an important role instead of police. I am also an instructor of the social work program. Social workers do not help sex workers by working with police this way. It's very important that members of the sex worker community help each other. That is the solution to addressing the imbalance and the exploitation of sex workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Madame Michaud, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by clarifying something.

I'm already getting tweets from people telling me that more police training is never the answer. I'm not saying it's the best or only solution, but it is one of the solutions.

My last question is for Ms. Lam.

Ms. Lam, I'm not sure whether you're aware that New Zealand decriminalized prostitution. The question now is whether that did much to help the situation. According to studies, the change hasn't put an end to abuse, child prostitution, drug use or violence.

Do you think we should consider a model like New Zealand's, even though it may not have had all the desired effects?

[Elene Lam]

The criminal law gives the power to the police and the law is designed to eliminate sex workers, so no matter how you train law enforcement or how good law enforcement is, it is still designed to target sex workers. That's why we say training police is not helpful. You can see this with the Black Lives Matter movement and the defund the police movement. They keep saying that the police are not the solution to many social issues. Police are the harm and problem for many marginalized communities, including racialized, LGBTQ and poor people.

Thank you so much for raising the issue of New Zealand. Personally, I have done outreach in New Zealand, and we have also worked with a sex worker group in Sweden. It's very clear that the end-demand model that Canada is using makes sex work more dangerous and creates a barrier for sex workers trying to access all kinds of resources. Of course, the New Zealand model has a disadvantage because they still have immigration laws targeting migrants and still have racism. Decriminalization—removing this from criminal law—is the first important step in making sex workers safe. It is not only sex workers who keep saying it. There are many, many sex worker organizations all over the world, not only in Canada, that talk about this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Madame Michaud.

Mr. Garrison, you have two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lam, I think you must have noticed something I noticed today in the presentations from some of the speakers and in some of the questions. There's a denial of agency to those involved in sex work. Some have talked about the need for education among sex workers and said that sex workers are taught to be afraid of the police. All this seems to me to deny an agency to sex workers. I think that's what you're talking to us about: What makes things safer is for sex workers to have agency. Would that be correct?