Justice Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

When it comes to prevention, do you think communities and organizations like yours have all the tools they need not just to promote prevention at the community level, but also to keep victims of sexual exploitation safe?

They could fall through the cracks in terms of the system or this legislation, which doesn't seem to have lived up to expectations since it was passed.

[Miia Suokonautio]

Thanks for these very thoughtful questions. What I would say is akin to what Charlene was saying.

I'll tell you that I was an emergency crisis social worker in the pediatric hospital here in Halifax, where I would see children and adolescents in all sort of crises. There was a small but very significant group of young women coming in who were doing blow jobs in trailers to get tickets to the midway. This type of exploitation happens in all sorts of contexts, and it's part of what we talked about in terms of legislation.

For me, it's a complicated question around what the true root causes of this are and why, although it's not a silver bullet, the public health approach that we're talking about is.... We really want to be able to support people where they are, and this goes back to what Temi was saying around child welfare and whether our children who are growing up in child welfare are adequately supported around these issues, because they're especially vulnerable.

There are a couple of things. We need peer outreach workers across the country. We have an amazing team who themselves had been exploited and who are now our staff. They are the number one resource that we have as a community. They are the ones to whom I would send my children if, God forbid, I were in a situation. They understand the harm.

To answer the question on our resources, we as a community have to understand the welfare of our young people broadly writ.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We have Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the Halifax YWCA for their appearance today and their testimony, which is so grounded in the real experiences in their community.

At the beginning—I apologize if I mispronounce your surname—Ms. Suokonautio had answers to these two questions, which I think are the most important questions in front of us. They're not the philosophical questions. Of course, in the Criminal Code you can't legislate prevention—that's hard to do.

I want to go back to those two questions. You said there was no evidence that the bill, as it exists, is protecting people who are exploited. Could you give us a little more about what that conclusion is based on, from your experience?

[Miia Suokonautio]

I can speak to that quickly, and then maybe Temi can follow up.

Across the province the service providers we are working with on the ground are reporting numerous instances of not only exploitation, but violence that is happening in the context of the sex trade. Part of the reason we say there's no real evidence to support it is that very rarely do people come forward with that, because of the effect that the criminalized nature of participation can have on their livelihoods and getting those basic needs filled.

Then, when something does happen, there are a number of things that will come into play in terms of whether or not someone reports that to the police. We haven't seen an increase in charges from the Criminal Code point of view against purchasers or against perpetrators of bad dates when violence occurs. That's part of it.

Maybe Temi can give an example of what we've seen.

[Temitope Abiagom]

I would say that in the last month we've seen cases of sexual assaults...tricks on them...people who don't even have pimps. I will say to you that out of all the numbers of young people who have been assaulted, only one of them is willing to move forward with the charges. What that tells us is that this bill does not encourage people to move forward, because it stigmatizes them. It tells them they are at fault. They are the problem. It prevents them from seeking the support they need.

We see many young people who don't want to come forward because of this bill. They don't trust the system. They don't trust the police system. They don't trust the criminal justice system, for reasons best known to them. Those are some of the things we have seen.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Closely related is the second question: Does this bill, as it exists, actively cause harm to those who are involved in sex work?

Maybe you could say a bit more, since the conclusion you reached is that it does actively cause harm.

[Temitope Abiagom]

Yes, I can speak to that as well. When we talk about harm, what do we mean by that? It means people not coming forward to seek the support they need at the time they need it. We say it's causing harm because it's pushing the sex industry [Technical difficulty—Editor] penalizing them, and it also dehumanizes those who are involved in it. It's making supports really hard for them, making them more vulnerable to violence. The violence is increasing, and they're not coming forward to say, “This is what is happening to us.” In that way, we would say it's causing harm.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

At the beginning, there was some mention of the fact that there are many other laws around exploitation that would continue to exist if this law didn't exist. The experience in my community is that those other laws quite often are not used. Instead, there's an over-reliance on the provisions of C-36. In your experience in Halifax, would you say that's the case?

[Miia Suokonautio]

That was part of our presentation as well. In fairness, we also spoke with some of our local Crown prosecution here as we prepared this presentation.

First of all, where so few cases make it to the courts, it's an important.... It's this balance of harm. In some cases, Bill C-36 may be used, but we're balancing it against those who don't come forward.

We're also balancing it against the fact that other laws exist around exploitation. We've been talking about human trafficking here, but human trafficking is also its own criminal offence. That does not go unchanged if we talk about Bill C-36. Child pornography laws.... These types of things can still exist separately, even if we revisit Bill C-36. They remain there.

What's really vital for us is the evidence base. What is the evidence base when we make claims? Did this bill truly limit the number of people coming forward? All we can tell you is what we're seeing. If we rely on court data, it's only those who went to that point.

This is where I'll do a two-second plug. YWCA Halifax, together with our test partners, is doing work. We've currently wrapped up the second round of a provincial survey of people with lived experience. It is extremely high quality. It's excellent. This is what we should be using to determine our policies, not our opinions.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Is that report available at this point? If it is, could you be sure to table it with the clerk of the committee, so that we can look at it directly and make it part of our deliberations?

[Charlene Gagnon]

We are currently in the process of doing the data entry and analysis. We're hoping to have a report ready by May of this year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Next, for our five-minute round, is Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses. It's great to hear from you and to hear about the work you're doing, both the YWCA Halifax and the Joy Smith Foundation. I appreciate your input into this very important study we're doing.

My question is for Joy Smith. You mentioned two private member’s bills that you were able to pass as a member of Parliament.

It's good to see you again. I served at the same time as you. I also appreciated.... I guess you were far less partisan than I was, so you were able to get strong support across the aisle for your private member's bills.

Can you speak a bit to the tie-in with what you're doing now and Bill C-36? What do your private member's bills do and what is their tie-in to Bill C-36?

[Joy Smith]

I appreciate that question, because Bill C-36 was the basis that I built my bills on. We have evidence every day of Bill C-36 being very effective.

The shutdown of licensing for body rub parlours and escort services, for instance, was very important in the city of Winnipeg. The last victim I pulled out of one of those body rub parlours was 13 years of age. Because of Bill C-36, the emphasis now is on the perpetrator or on the john. They are the ones who get brought to justice. Before Bill C-36, it was the women who were arrested. Now that doesn't happen.

We've had many cases out of the 6,000.... The other day, I had my assistant bring some information to me in preparation for today. We've had 1,223 cases—I think; I don't have it in front of me—of victims who actually went to police because we were saying to them that this is the law.

The danger is that a lot of people don't know what the real laws are. If people belong to a certain group or to one organization, they all think the same way. We have to think outside the boxes.

That's what I did when I was in Parliament. I had friends on all sides of the House, including Liberal, Bloc Québécois, NDP and everybody who really wanted to end the horrendous torture that some of these young girls went through in human trafficking. No one talked about how a lot of these young people were targeted. They became boyfriends and girlfriends of the perpetrators unknowingly. They didn't realize that eventually they would be trafficked and their lives would be changed forever. The rehabilitation side takes a very long time. The reintegration into families takes a very long time. The girl who left home is not the girl who comes back, if she comes back.

I'm very positive that if we have that education out there and we work together on all sides of the House to support Bill C-36, keep it there and build on it....

When we talk about root causes, since the beginning of time we've talked about housing and education and all of that. That's very valid. I found in our intervention program that providing a pathway to education after coming out of human trafficking and providing a pathway to housing so they can live in a safe place was a game-changer in Canada. It would be a travesty not to have it there, because we've had clear evidence all across Canada.

We are a registered, not-for-profit, national NGO. From all the provinces, and that includes Nova Scotia, we've had evidence of Bill C-36 being a really big asset to the victims of human trafficking. We have to be very careful when we put away a bill that was the basis for the voice of the victims of human trafficking. I think it has to be there and I think it has to be enhanced.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you for your testimony.

I have only a few seconds left.

Ms. Gagnon, you mentioned the importance of education. You're doing work in grade 7 and grade 8. I'm sorry it's not a ton of time, but can you give us a couple of highlights of what that work is like?

[Charlene Gagnon]

Yes, for sure.

Of course we have our regular healthy living curriculum within the Department of Education here in Nova Scotia. Up until this past September, it never included a component on educating youth on what exploitation can look like and what grooming can look like. We also had a page put into the grade 7 sex book about human trafficking and exploitation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Moore. Thank you, Ms. Gagnon.

Next, we have Ms. Diab for five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to have all the panellists with us today.

I represent Halifax West, so Miia, Charlene and Temi, it's nice to see you. I really appreciate all the work you are doing in my home province of Nova Scotia. I know that you're leading TESS, the trafficking and exploitation service system. In fact, having been an MLA back in 2020, I know you held a session for all provincial MLAs. For me that was a real eye-opening experience.

I know you have a partnership with over 70 agencies in the province, working to respond to the commercial sexual exploitation of children and youth. As a couple of my colleagues have referenced, you rightly went to the root of the question here: Does the bill protect people from being exploited, and does it actually cause harm?

You also mentioned that this needs to be evidence-based. Can you talk to me, in the few minutes you have left, about the need for it to be evidence-based? I know you've done extensive investigations, or you've worked with a lot of people who are in the sex trade industry. Can you tell me about who they are, who the victims are and who the other side is? Just give us a bit of a broader reflection of all of that and anything else you would like to add.

[Charlene Gagnon]

We've done a number of “first voice” consultations and engagements with individuals across the province of all ages and backgrounds who have been sex trade-engaged. We don't require anyone to identify their experiences as being a victim or a survivor or even a sex worker. We're fairly inclusive in terms of how we consult and who we consult with. While we never want to conflate sex work and trafficking, we also recognize that there are intersections between exploitation and trafficking and the sex trade generally.

Some of those projects have included our 2020 Hearing Them survey, which was the first kick at the can of talking to survivors. We talked to 95 survivors across Nova Scotia. About 70% of those were from urban communities and about 30% were from rural communities. From their responses, we actually made some changes to our policies and on how we move forward. We asked them well over 100 questions—basic demographic information, what was going on in their lives, how old they were when they first engaged in the sex trade, whether or not they were still engaged in the sex trade—and then really focused around services and supports.

One thing that really came out from that 2020 survey, which I think is important to note here, is that it is true that people often come into the sex trade as youth and as being influenced or being trafficked in that Criminal Code sense of the word. However, once they move on and they're entrenched in the sex trade, without having any additional resources or educational opportunities to make a career change, they stay engaged. Many of the people who identify as being adult sex workers in Nova Scotia are both adult independent sex workers and former victims of exploitation and trafficking. We hold that very closely. We try to make sure that we are survivor-informed in our practice and in the policies we put forward.

Really, what everyone tells us is that there are two basic things they want. They want non-judgmental services, which means we have to remove some of the values we might have about the buying and selling of sex to reduce the stigmatization of their experiences. They also really need harm reduction services. They have basic needs. They need housing, they need food, they need income and they need transportation, particularly if they're in rural communities. They need a whole host of things. Often that means that as service providers, we have to set aside the personal or individual values we have on the buying and selling of sex.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Madame Michaud, you have two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Smith.

Ms. Smith, as a former member of Parliament, you can appreciate the position we're in as we try to navigate all of this.

Thank you for the commitment you've shown and the foundation you created. You are doing important work to combat human trafficking through prevention, support and intervention.

Do you think we should be going further in this reform? I said “reform”, but what we're doing feels more like a review of the act, which we've often been told has not achieved its purpose.

What changes do you recommend? Do you think we should reform the act or change how things are done?

[Joy Smith]

Bill C-36 is very valuable. I think we could strengthen it even more by putting the prevention piece in it.

Also, something that comes up over and over again, and what we've found at the foundation, is that once you work with survivors, they need a way out. They need education and they need a different path, because when they start out, they're innocent victims, really. Someone lures them into the sex trade. In Canada, 93% of our traffic victims are Canadian born. They need to have a pathway whereby they can get re-educated and find a job to support themselves. That's the reality. A lot of them stay in it because they have no way out.

Then you have the enhanced addictions. You have all the trauma they go through when they can't provide their own children with the necessities of life.

We could go even further as parliamentarians, by adding to Bill C-36 to make that component a reality, bridging among all the levels of government—federal, provincial and municipal—because I think that is neglected in a lot of ways. All these levels of government are very important in the solutions we need for the victims of human trafficking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Smith and Madame Michaud.

It's over to you, Mr. Garrison, for two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to say, for the record, that I too was here when Bill C-36 was passed, and despite some implication here that there was broad support for the bill, only Conservatives voted for it. The Liberals and New Democrats did not.

I want to go back to the representatives from Halifax and talking about a public health approach. I'm assuming the situation in Halifax is the same as it is in my community, where you find an overrepresentation of indigenous people, racialized Canadians and often those who are from my community—the LGBT community—represented in sex work. I wonder if that is in fact the case in Halifax and whether the general causes you're talking about are the same: the lack of access to the basic necessities and to good employment opportunities.