Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 42 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference of November 17, 2022, this committee is meeting to begin its study of the supplementary estimates (B) 2022-23 of the Department of Justice. Pursuant to the order of reference of November 23, 2022, we will proceed later today to the study of Bill C-291, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other acts (child sexual abuse material).

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and the members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to active your mike. Please mute it when you're not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I would remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best as we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

For the first hour of this meeting, we will now proceed to supplementary estimates (B) 2022-23 for the following items. We have vote 1b under the Canadian Human Rights Commission, vote 1b under the Courts Administration Service, votes 1b and 5b under the Department of Justice, vote 1b under the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and vote 1b under the Registrar of the Supreme Court of Canada.

To present those items, we have with us the honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

Welcome, Minister.

I would also like to welcome François Daigle, deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general of Canada; Michael Sousa, senior assistant deputy minister of the policy sector; and Bill Kroll, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister of the management sector.

I will now give the floor to Minister Lametti to give his statement, and then we will go to a round of questions.

[David Lametti, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm glad to be here today for the committee's study of the 2022‑23 supplementary estimates (B) of the Department of Justice Canada.

I would like to start by acknowledging that we are located on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabeg Nation.

I'm joined today, as you said, Mr. Chair, by François Daigle, deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general of Canada; Michael Sousa, senior assistant deputy minister of the policy sector; and Bill Kroll, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister. I thank the three of them for being in support of me today.

Over the past year, the Department of Justice Canada has continued working to address the tremendous pressures on the justice system.

We have made good progress on the postpandemic recovery, now that the health restrictions have been lifted. We have reduced the backlog of cases before the courts, and we have strengthened the justice system to better support the people affected most. We hope to continue that work through Bill S‑4, which is now before you.

We are continuing to support government-wide priorities, such as addressing inequality, systemic racism and discrimination, advancing reconciliation with indigenous peoples and assisting newcomers to Canada and refugees.

The funds we seek in the 2022-23 supplementary estimates (B) will allow us to build on this work by delivering on key commitments to transform our justice system and make sure that it truly focuses on the people whom it serves.

In particular, that means ensuring that the justice system is accessible and fair to everyone in Canada, no matter their background, income, beliefs or gender identity.

This work stems from our overarching objective of addressing systemic discrimination and the overrepresentation of indigenous, Black, racialized and marginalized people in the criminal justice system. We have taken an important step this year with the passage of Bill C‑5, which includes numerous reforms to make the justice system more fair and equitable.

We are continuing our work together with indigenous peoples to achieve the objectives of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and to make progress toward reconciliation.

Let me explain how the supplementary estimates funds will allow us to deliver on these priorities.

First, access to justice is a fundamental Canadian value and an integral part of a fair and just society. A strong legal aid system is one of the pillars that supports Canada's justice system.

We are continuing to make investments to address the strain on the legal aid system and to ensure the continued delivery of legal aid in immigration and refugee cases.

This is an essential investment, without which, some legal aid providers might have to stop providing services that vulnerable refugee claimants depend on.

Without proper resources and services we would see delays at the Immigration and Refugee Board and the Federal Court. This in turn would hinder government investments aimed at improving the asylum system's processing capacity.

This funding feeds into the department's work to fulfill the Government of Canada's commitment to addressing systemic racism in Canada.

The supplementary estimates (B) also include funding to support our efforts to address the overrepresentation of indigenous people, Black and racialized Canadians and members of marginalized communities in our justice system. As mentioned, this funding complements our work in other areas, including law reform, improving the diversity of judicial appointments and my mandate commitments to develop an indigenous justice strategy and Canada's first Black justice strategy.

The opioid crisis has laid bare the need for public health solutions to substance abuse rather than criminal penalties.

We have seen a growing demand all over the country for court-supervised addictions treatment programs provided by drug treatment courts. In an effort to address those needs, the government allocated $40.4 million in budget 2021 over five years, beginning in 2021‑22, and $10 million ongoing for the justice department and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

That includes $24.5 million over five years starting this year and $7 million ongoing in contributions funding for the justice department.

These measures will work to support justice for all.

This brings me to our efforts to advance reconciliation with indigenous peoples, which is central to so much of my mandate.

A key component of reconciliation is ensuring that the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is properly implemented, in consultation and co‑operation with indigenous peoples.

We are in the process of an extensive distinctions-based process to engage first nations, Inuit and Métis communities to develop an action plan by June 2023.

We are also working with indigenous peoples on an indigenous justice strategy. This past year, our government appointed a special interlocutor for missing children, unmarked graves and burial sites associated with Indian residential schools. The special interlocutor, Ms. Kimberly Murray, will work closely and collaboratively with indigenous leaders, communities, survivors, families and experts to identify needed measures and recommend a new federal legal framework to ensure the respectful and culturally appropriate treatment and protection of unmarked graves and burial sites of children at former residential schools.

We are also supporting Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada in their work to implement An Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families, which came into force on January 1, 2020.

Accordingly, Justice Canada is requesting $510,000 in supplementary estimates (B) to enhance the department's capacity to provide expert legal advice on interpretation and implementation issues related to section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

We expect that this additional funding will be essential over a period of five years given the national scope of the legal issues, the extent of their impact and their newness.

In short, Mr. Chair, the funding requested through supplementary estimates (B) will enable the Department of Justice Canada to continue playing an essential role in building a robust, equitable and effective justice system that protects Canadians, their rights and their communities.

Thank you for your time.

I am now happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Lametti.

We will go to our first round of questions, beginning with a round of six minutes with Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here today, as well as your officials.

I have a few questions.

We're seeing...kind of ripped from the headlines as of late. You were here before at this committee on Bill C-7, discussing medical assistance in dying. As you know, the bill that you had brought forward before was amended by the Senate to include those suffering with mental illness. As of March 17, 2023, those individuals will be eligible for MAID.

The amendment for that, quite frankly, surprised us at this committee—I think on all sides—because this was considered under Bill C-7. When you, yourself, spoke in the House in February 2021, you said that you “do not believe that we are fully prepared to safely proceed with the provision of MAID on the ground of mental illness alone”.

Now, we see in the headlines multiple instances—very disturbing ones—of individuals who have served our country, the Canadian Armed Forces veterans, being offered medical assistance in dying when they reach out for help, perhaps with post-traumatic stress disorder or some other challenge they're facing. Canadians are shocked and alarmed by this.

My question for you, Minister, is the following. We know that the RCMP is getting involved in this. Clearly, under our current system, vulnerable Canadians are not being sufficiently protected when it comes to medical assistance in dying. In light of this looming deadline of March 17, 2023, when MAID will be further expanded, are you willing to put the brakes on that expansion until we get some guidelines in place that clearly protect vulnerable Canadians—not only members of the Canadian Armed Forces and veterans, but all vulnerable Canadians suffering with mental illness?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Moore. That's an important question. You and I have both been through the committee process on Bill C-7. I appreciate the work that we've all done on that.

Let me say, first of all, that if someone is suffering from a mental disorder, there is help. People should reach out for help. That is critically important to underline at the outset.

The current MAID regime contains balances within it. Those reports are troubling to me. It is up to the medical profession to ensure that those standards are met. It's up to the medical profession to underline that MAID is about individual choice for people who qualify under the criteria that are there. That's something that needs to be underlined, because it seems that in some of the reports that has been downplayed.

I underscore that when those criteria are not met, and the regime has not been followed, there's a criminal act there. Then it's up to the police to investigate.

A great deal of work has been done on mental illness since I made that statement in 2021. The expert committee has come up with a report and a set of guidelines. A great deal of work has been done at the federal and provincial levels to ensure that for the vast minority of cases—and I underscore “minority of cases”—where, according to those guidelines that are being developed through the expert committee, someone might be eligible for MAID solely with the condition of mental disorder, those safeguards will be in place.

I understand the concerns, and I understand that the concerns would change. I'm committed to continue to work with all of you to improve those standards as we move forward, to improve the communication of those standards so that we have clarity, and to work with provinces to ensure that they have the appropriate supports in place to make these provisions operational.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

I think the challenge Canadians are seeing here is that, by and large, health care within our country is controlled by the individual provinces. We've heard warnings even as recently....

Minister, the Association of Chairs of Psychiatry in Canada has called for your government to delay the expansion of MAID for those suffering from mental illness. They've issued a letter saying the following:

Further time is required to increase awareness of this change and establish guidelines and standards to which...patients and the public can turn...for more education and information.

That's as well as doctors' concern.

Here's the concern. At the federal level, these changes are being brought into our Criminal Code. We're saying that enough work has happened, when so clearly even our own house.... These were federal employees of the Department of Veterans Affairs who were offering MAID to veterans. This is a case of not only the provinces and professionals not being ready for this, according to the Association of Chairs of Psychiatry, but also the federal government itself not seeming to know what it's doing, when we have seemingly random people offering assisted death to struggling veterans.

This is December. March is quickly approaching. This government and this entire regime are not ready.

So, Minister, I guess my plea to you on behalf of many Canadians who are calling out to put the brakes on this, including doctors and those suffering with mental illness and the disability community, is that you strongly consider that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Please be very quick, Minister. You have 10 seconds.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Moore. I appreciate that your question comes from a very good place.

We have put a great deal of resources into the system, but we will continue to monitor your concerns and the concerns that are being raised by Canadians in a variety of different professional spheres, and we'll continue to do that as we move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

We'll now go to Ms. Dhillon for six minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Good morning, Minister. Thank you to you and your officials for being here today.

My first question has to do with Bill C‑5, which received royal assent on November 17, 2022. Can you tell us how the bill will ensure that Canadians are treated fairly and equitably within our criminal justice system?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Dhillon.

It's a historic bill, in my view, one that will really change our approach to non-violent crimes and offences that do not involve a risk to the public or public safety.

It will help us tackle the over-incarceration of Black, racialized and indigenous individuals, by giving judges back discretion over sentencing to ensure that sentences are fair and equitable, and by providing for other types of sentences and rehabilitation.

In British Columbia, we just invested in indigenous-led community justice centres. Indigenous people will have the ability to fully oversee the approach to justice, with a view to reducing recidivism rates and helping communities heal and move forward.

Bill C‑5 does that in part through diversion measures, whereby people are referred to the health and other services they need to address the root causes of their problems. This is very important legislation that I think will shape the future of justice.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

I will follow up on your comments.

How will Bill C‑5 facilitate rehabilitation for those charged with drug possession?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

By default, the basic principle is not to subject the person to the penal system. Since the real problem is one of addiction, health or mental health, the person should instead be redirected to the supports needed to address the root of the problem.

The bill gives flexibility not only to the judge, but to the police and prosecutor, allowing them to look at other avenues than the criminal system. It has to take into account the investments made in health, mental health, housing and other social aspects to better manage the person. We must also take into account the investments in Gladue reports, which provide more context for indigenous people and also for black people at the time of sentencing. Finally, we need to consider investments in programs that provide support to people after they are sentenced.

This is therefore a holistic process that will better frame and protect individuals and communities.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

I want to come back to a long-neglected issue that you have addressed in your recent announcements, the overrepresentation of indigenous, Black or racialized communities. This is a really important issue that has been on your mind for months.

Can you tell us about any initiatives the federal government has taken on this issue?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for your question.

Bill C‑5 is one element to address this overrepresentation. Working with indigenous leaders across the country, who are doing much of the work, we are developing an indigenous justice strategy, which we expect to see the results of, that will target the very important issue of overrepresentation of indigenous people in the criminal justice system.

We also believe that the reconstitution of the Law Reform Commission of Canada will allow the commission to explore or further develop other avenues to combat this problem. We would also like to see the creation of a commission on miscarriages of justice, which disproportionately affect indigenous and racialized people.

We are using other measures and investing in community justice centres across Canada to find grassroots solutions.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.

Now we will go to Mr. Fortin for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am replacing Mr. Fortin and will do my best.

Thank you very much for being here this morning, Minister.

The Bloc Québécois is always very concerned about safety. So I would like to talk to you about our Bill C‑279 , which seeks to amend the definition of a criminal organization to include any group composed of three or more persons in Canada or abroad, where one of the main purposes or activities of said group is to commit or facilitate one or more serious offences, and that is a criminal entity listed on the recommendation of the Minister of Public Safety on the new list that the bill would establish in section 467.101 of the Criminal Code. This new list would link the criminal entity to any individual claiming to be a member.

Will you support our Bill C‑279?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Every private member's bill has to be considered. I will do so with Minister Mendicino who, if I'm not mistaken, will be the person responsible for representing our position.

Out of respect for my colleague and the process, I'm not in a position to tell you today when our government will take a public position on this.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

You're the Attorney General. I would like to know what you think about the increase in crime by street gangs, for example in Montreal. We see all the problems that this creates. What are your concerns about this?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

As a Montreal MP and as Minister of Justice and Attorney General, I am concerned about this complex issue.

We must work with the provinces, including Quebec, with the police forces and with other countries and their police forces. We also have to try to get to the root of the problem.

It's a very complex issue with no simple solution. I'm committed to working with my colleagues and any province to find solutions.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

I like to hear you say that you want to address the root of the problem. That's the only thing to do.

Are there laws in other countries that could be used as a model for establishing membership in a criminal group?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

In principle, yes, we should look at how other countries are approaching this. As Minister of Justice, I would have a role to play in that.

However, the fight against organized crime is more the responsibility of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. I therefore support Minister Mendicino in his efforts.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

The Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness is definitely responsible for focusing on the fight against crime. However, as Minister of Justice, given the rise in gun crimes and the increase in the number of criminal groups, you must reflect on this issue, and I'm sure that you share our concerns about it.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Yes, that's what I just answered to your question. I'm working hand in hand with the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and I'll continue to do so.