Justice Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Go ahead, Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I'm wondering if Gary can give us a detailed analysis and breakdown of this particular vote.

Looking at the clock, maybe we'll just go right to the vote.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

It would take me an hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Shall votes 1b and 5b under the Department of Justice carry?

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Vote 1b—Operating expenditures..........413,591 Vote 5b—Grants and contributions..........47,150,000

(Votes 1b and 5b agreed to on division)

OFFICE OF THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS Vote 1b—Program expenditures..........6,728,028

(Vote 1b agreed to on division)

REGISTRAR OF THE SUPREME COURT OF CANADA Vote 1b—Program expenditures..........3,419,692

(Vote 1b agreed to on division)

Shall the chair report supplementary estimates (B) 2022-23 with vote 1b under the Canadian Human Rights Commission, vote 1b under Courts Administration Service, votes 1b and 5b under the Department of Justice, vote 1b under the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and vote 1b under the Registrar of the Supreme Court of Canada to the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

On division.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

We're done on that part.

I will now suspend for a few minutes to allow our witnesses to come to the table for our next item of business.

I will suspend and the clerk will advise me when we are ready for that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Pursuant to the order of reference of November 23, 2022, we will now proceed to the study of Bill C-291, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other acts (child sexual abuse material).

I'd like to welcome the sponsors of the bill, Mel Arnold, the member for North Okanagan—Shuswap, and Mr. Frank Caputo, the member for Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo.

For the first hour, I will allow five minutes of presentation by the sponsors, followed by questions from the members. The last 30 minutes will be devoted to the clause-by-clause study of the bill.

I'll begin with Mr. Arnold for five minutes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

It's an honour to be speaking here for the first time [Technical difficulty—Editor] an act to amend the Criminal Code and make consequential amendments to other acts.

At the outset, I would like to express my thanks to the honourable member for Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, Mr. Caputo, who is a full-time member on this committee and who was central in the conception and drafting of this bill. The honourable member's experience as a crown prosecutor has afforded him insight into how we, as parliamentarians, can strengthen our federal statutes to enhance the protection of Canadians, especially children, and I thank him for his work on this bill.

As I stated in the second reading debate, I believe it is essential that the Criminal Code of Canada contain terms that accurately describe prohibited activities. I also believe that the code's use of the term “child pornography” is a misnomer in that it fails to accurately describe prohibited activities.

What the Criminal Code currently calls child pornography is more severe than pornography, because it involves children, it is not consensual, it is exploitative and it's abusive, and the Criminal Code should clearly reflect these realities.

Mr. Chair, the Criminal Code of Canada contains many elements, including essential elements that define, prohibit, deter and penalize criminal activities. Bill C-291 does not propose any amendments to definitions, prohibitions or penalties. It clearly and succinctly proposes to change the term “child pornography” to “child sexual abuse material”.

As Mr. Anandasangaree correctly noted in the second reading debate of this bill, the intent of the bill:

...is not to change the definition. Rather, it is to more accurately reflect the definition in the name. Courts should not change their interpretation of the law based on the change in title.

At second reading, Mr. Savard-Tremblay astutely noted that:

By calling it “child sexual abuse material”, we do two things: We name the abuse that the child suffered, and we also describe the accused as a sexual abuser of children.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay also noted that:

It puts things into perspective: There is a victim of abuse in a crime involving child pornography, and there is a person sexually abusing children.

I also acknowledge Mr. Garrison, and thank him for his comments at second reading, in which he highlighted the need for enforcement resources—especially for the specialized law enforcement units that “work so hard” to combat child abuse and exploitation—and “improvements to services and supports for survivors”.

I agree with all of these points and thank those who participated in the second reading debate and voted to move this bill forward quickly to today's examination here at committee.

Child sexual abuse material is a growing problem in Canada, and Canadians look to us, their elected representatives, to take the steps—big and small—that are required to deal with the problems like sexual abuse and the exploitation of children.

I would like to acknowledge today the response and support received from the Canadian Centre for Child Protection Inc. and Ratanak International, which have supported the movement of this bill.

I'd like to thank the committee for taking time out of their busy schedule to examine the bill. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Mr. Caputo, would you like to add anything, or do you want to go to the round of questions?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Could I have about 60 seconds, please, Mr. Chair? Is that permissible?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Sure, absolutely.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, members of the committee. It's truly a profound honour to be here before you today. This is, as most of you know, my first time being elected for anything—my first time, obviously, being elected to Parliament. I stood on the doorways of people in my riding, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, and I said that one of the reasons I want to go to Parliament is to address how we as Canadians, as parliamentarians, deal with sexual offences against children.

In my former life, I focused on this area professionally. It always really bothered me that we call child pornography what it is. It is actually child sexual abuse material. Children cannot consent, period, full stop. We need to stop equating what happens to children with what occurs between consenting adults.

That's why pornography is a misnomer. It is a pleasure and an honour to be here today to discuss this. I urge Parliament and the Senate to pass this legislation on third reading, and on review in the Senate, expeditiously.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

I'll go to the first round of questions. For some reason, I cannot find my list of questioners—the order format. I will ask my wonderful clerk to assist me in that regard and advise me who our first.... Is it Mr. Moore, or someone else from the Conservatives?

[The Clerk]

We have Mr. Brock, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Mr. Brock, it's over to you for six minutes. I'll keep this efficient. We'll try to do just one round with everyone.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, and good afternoon, colleagues. Thank you so much for sponsoring this important bill.

I listened very carefully, Mr. Arnold, to your words. I want to thank you for giving up your opportunity to pursue your own private member's bill to support Mr. Caputo's bid to raise this important issue.

It's over to you, Mr. Caputo. I understand that you're a former Crown attorney. You've justified your motivation in bringing this bill to the attention that it deserves. I applaud you for your motivation.

I want to ask you if you could perhaps provide a little more colour. This will go, in my view, a small way in terms of addressing the worldwide phenomena known as abusing children and exploiting children. Sadly—and I think you'll acknowledge this—this particular bill will not, unfortunately, address the penalties for these types of individuals who have an insatiable appetite for the abuse of children.

Can you, perhaps, provide some commentary as to how the current Liberal government's failures in terms of advancing other key pieces of legislative change...and how you feel that we need to do more as a nation to set an example?

I recall your example to the minister about equating robbery offences, where a lifetime penalty will include a lifetime period in jail...versus the sexual abuse of minors and adults. Perhaps you can shed some light on that for me, please.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Brock, for your question. That's very true. We have to realize that children themselves who are victims of sexual abuse are often placed in a psychological prison for life. Our penalties, in my view, should reflect the fact that children are not only harmed; they are being continually harmed.

In this type of offence, for the possession of child sexual abuse and exploitation material, they are victimized each and every time somebody downloads it, somebody watches it, somebody accesses it or somebody distributes it. We cannot overlook this. The abuse itself happens once, but it is perpetuated each and every time somebody accesses those things. The mandatory minimums passed by the Harper government were struck down, and at this point I am trying to express to the minister the disappointment with the Liberal government that it hasn't acted.

Right now, if you sexually assault an adult, the penalty is 10 years for taking their sexual dignity, inviolability and consent by force. Sexual interference—that is, a sexual offence against a child who is incapable of consent by law—has a maximum sentence of 14 years. Robbery, which is the taking of property from somebody by force, has a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. We treat the taking of property more seriously than we do the taking of somebody's dignity and consent. If you were to ask people, “Would you rather be the victim of a robbery or the victim of a sexual assault?”, I can tell you that 99%, maybe 100%, would say, “I will take the robbery any day.”

It is time we start addressing the issue of sexual offences, particularly sexual offences against children, with the seriousness it deserves. This bill is the first step that I will undertake. I have another private member's bill on this, Bill C-299. I thank Mr. Arnold for running with this with such vigour. I appreciate all he has done with that.

Thank you.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. Arnold, you mentioned in your opening statement that a number of organizations supported this particular bill. Can you perhaps provide a little more colour on what particular groups were consulted and what input they had in the drafting of this bill?

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Brock, for that question.

I give much of the credit for a lot of the early drafting of this bill to Mr. Caputo, through his experience on this. Recently, since this bill started moving through the process, we reached out further to organizations that have dealt with child sexual abuse, child trafficking or human trafficking. The results of those inquiries are still coming in. We did receive a response from the Canadian Centre for Child Protection. They are supportive of this bill. They recognize that this is a small piece that we can do to move our laws in Canada forward.

As you know, and as many of us as members know, in Parliament private members' bills can take only incremental steps, not the way government can. We hope this bill will send a signal to government, through the support it's received in the unanimous consent in the House and support from stakeholders who continue to come in behind us in supporting this bill, that we need to make changes to our laws to better protect Canada's most vulnerable—Canada's children.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Mr. Naqvi, you have five minutes.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Let me start by thanking and congratulating both members in front of us.

Mr. Arnold and Mr. Caputo, thank you for your important work and for the passion you bring to an extremely important issue that is of concern to every single one of us from all sides of the aisle. Protecting the vulnerable is our number one job, and the children among us are perhaps the most vulnerable people in our society. Anything we can do to work together, as we are doing so well here on this particular bill, will go a long way.

Mr. Caputo, this is just for personal interest. I know that you were a prosecutor. How long did you practise as a prosecutor?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I was a federal prosecutor for approximately two years. I prosecuted with the provincial Crown in this area for approximately 10 years. I also taught at Thompson Rivers University in the faculty of law, on my own and with the Honourable Judge Gregory Koturbash in advanced criminal law and sentencing, for three or four years.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

We know how long Mr. Brock has been a prosecutor. I just want to make sure we have on the record your career as well. I think it's important.