Justice Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

In my own community, we have a different concern, and that's about repeat and prolific non-violent offenders and their impact on, in particular, small business and public safety fears in downtown areas. I think that's a different issue, but I think it's one we also have to look at in this committee.

Could you give us some of your thoughts on that problem, which is a different problem but a real problem that we need to tackle?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

It is a different problem, but it is a real problem and one that certainly is of great concern to us. There are fraud offences that victimize seniors' life savings—those types of very dramatic financial impacts to communities and to businesses—and I think it comes down to meaningful consequences and true rehabilitation.

That's something I would be hesitant to provide any meaningful and direct feedback on, but I would welcome an opportunity to sit down as part of a larger group and have some meaningful discussion on it, because I think there are some solutions that collectively we could contribute to.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Do you think the recent spike in random violence incidents, for instance, in the city of Toronto and on the transit system...? Do you think any of that could be related to the bail system? Have you seen evidence of that, or is that not the case?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I believe it could be related to the bail system.

I can't specifically relate to the violence on public transit, but the overall violence.... Chief Myron Demkiw of the Toronto Police Service would tell you that he has statistics that are absolutely alarming about the number of people who are released on bail who fit the definition of a repeat violent offender using a firearm in the commission of an offence, who then reoffend and reoffend and reoffend, up to three times; 17% of Toronto's homicides fit into that category.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

We'll go to our next round, beginning with Mr. Van Popta for five minutes.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Commissioner, for being with us here today.

I'm going to join with all my colleagues in expressing my condolences and the condolences of people in British Columbia for the tragic death of Constable Greg Pierzchala. You're outraged. We're all outraged by it. In British Columbia, it's also still fresh for us that Constable Shaelyn Yang of the RCMP was murdered while on active duty. It's heartbreaking.

It's an important study that we're undertaking on bail reform, and you were quoted as saying, “We as police chiefs, right across this country, are asking for a narrow, very narrow scope that deals with the most dangerous of offenders and will ensure the safety and security of police officers and citizens alike.”

I'm going to ask you—and I'm perhaps repeating a bit what Mr. Garrison was asking about—how you define “narrow, very narrow”.

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I define “narrow” and “very narrow” by being very specific in relation to the types of offences and what would constitute a repeat violent offender. It is a distinct pattern of violent criminal behaviour that has led to criminal convictions before the courts, and evidence of convictions of having used weapons and/or firearms in the commission of those offences. That is how I would articulate a “narrow” scope that will have the greatest impact on public safety.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

That's good. Thank you.

Now, you've mentioned “repeat offenders”. Of course, this study is about bail reform, which is narrower than just the broader topic of repeat offenders. Is our study too narrow? Should we be talking about other issues that perhaps could be introduced to restrain or to reduce the occurrence of repeat offences?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I don't think your study is too narrow. My reason for that is that change is needed immediately. If you stop and talk to any police officer in any community across this country, they will tell you their top priority is to see bail reform. We owe it to each and every one of them; we owe it to victims of violence crime, and we owe it to victims of intimate partner violence to make these changes now.

My challenge to all of us would be to expand on that scope after those changes have been made. If you make your scope too large in this study, it will take too long to make that change, and the time for change is now.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I understand, and I appreciate that. However, Greg Pierzchala was murdered by somebody who was out on bail for a previous firearms crime, whereas Constable Yang was murdered by a person who was not out on bail but in an environment where there was a lot of repeat crime. I appreciate what you're saying—let's narrow the focus, let's study this—but there's more work to be done.

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Absolutely, there's more work to be done. It takes a holistic approach, which requires very detailed and critical-systems thinking. However, we cannot let that stand in the way of progress. We can't stop with these changes, but we need to start somewhere. I think this is a very appropriate and responsible place to start.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I'm going to ask you a question about statistics. You shared some statistics with us.

I don't know if this is available, but I would like to know the impact that Bill C-75 had on policing work in Ontario and across the country. Bill C-75 has been with us now for about four years. I think it received royal assent in June 2019. It amended some of our bail rules.

Do we have statistics on what policing work was like before and after that date?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

One of the statistics that I've already referenced would be a helpful context in looking at various bail reform initiatives in the province of Ontario. We identified that between 2018 and 2022 there was a 72% increase in violent crimes committed by serious, prolific or repeat violent offenders. I think we—

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Who were on bail?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Who were on bail, yes.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

That's good.

Thank you. I don't have any more questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

We'll next go to Ms. Dhillon for five minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Carrique, for being here.

For us, as well, we were heartbroken when we saw the news about the officer being murdered in this manner. It's always tragic. It's very hurtful to see that, because police officers are out there protecting us, trying to keep our communities safe, and when this happens to a young man like that, it's heartbreaking. We offer our condolences as well.

I'd like to start with some of your testimony, your answers.

You spoke about having the interpretation of the legislation further codified, some direction. I know we're short on time, so everybody asks questions quickly. Perhaps you can elaborate as much as possible, please.

Thank you.

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Certainly. Thank you for your condolences.

If you don't mind, I will take you back to some of the recommendations I cited in reference to paragraph 515(10)(b) of the Criminal Code.

We're actually identifying things that need to be given appropriate weight as they relate to public safety before considering the release or while considering the release of an offender. These include preventing the commission of a serious offence; the prior commission of a serious offence while out on bail; the prior commission of an offence while using a weapon, in particular a firearm; and the extent to which the number and frequency of any previous convictions of the accused for serious offences indicate a persistent, serious offending by the accused. Then, what is very important is the nature and likelihood of any danger to the life or personal safety of any person or danger to the community that may be presented by the release of a person charged with an offence punishable by imprisonment for a term of 10 years or more.

I think that type of codified instruction as to what ought to be or needs to be weighed would be extremely helpful in achieving public safety.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you for that.

Can you describe the responsibility of police forces during the bail hearing and their enforcement of the conditions?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

We have an obligation to assist in the prosecution of an offender, which would include a bail hearing. We would work with the Crown attorney on making any met recommendations as they relate to conditions of release and/or are specific to secondary grounds to be considered upon release.

Once an offender is released, the police have the ability to check on compliance for bail conditions. These aren't always necessarily evident to the police. I'm visiting Ottawa today. If I were charged and released on bail, and I went back to Toronto, where I reside, the Toronto Police would have no idea that I'm residing in their community. There are no means by which to identify me, until they come into contact with me, as an offender residing in their community. There are initiatives on the way to ensure that information is shared.

One thing that is important to realize is that there is only one person responsible for abiding by conditions when on bail. That is the offender, who has entered into an undertaking with a justice.

There may be a second person, who is the surety. They have taken responsibility for their adherence to those conditions. Those sureties also need to be held accountable when they do not fulfill their obligations. It is extremely rare that any form of deposit is ever forfeited. There are professional sureties out there that are putting up monies without deposits for numerous offenders and not fulfilling their obligations. They are called “professional sureties” in the police world.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

In this vein, can I ask you about bail supervisors, please? Could you talk to us about their role?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Most police services have high-risk offender units or other units of that type. We call ours the “crime abatement strategy”, in which we do our best to identify offenders who are out on bail and pose the highest risk to the community. We'll do proactive compliance checks to ensure that they are complying with those conditions. When they are found not to be in compliance, the appropriate course would be to arrest them, if you can locate them.

I will highlight the case when Constable Pierzchala was killed. Mr. McKenzie cut off his GPS device. He was nowhere to be found. Where does a police officer even begin to look for somebody who does not want to be located and has disregarded a GPS monitoring device that was part of their conditions?

Extensive efforts were undertaken by two police services of jurisdiction, including taking out two warrants for the arrest of Mr. McKenzie. Prior to their being able to apprehend him, despite extensive efforts, he had the opportunity to murder my officer, because he was released from custody.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.

Next, we'll go to Monsieur Fortin for two and a half minutes.