Evidence of meeting #51 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accused.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Taylor  General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Chelsea Moore  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Thomas Carrique  Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 51 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 30, 2023, the committee is beginning its study on Canada’s bail system.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. I won't go into details on that, because I think everybody knows the rules and all the members are in the House today.

I wanted to let Monsieur Fortin know that the sound has been checked for everyone. We are good to go with interpretation.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you so much, sir.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

You're welcome.

To begin this study on Canada's bail system, we have with us officials from the Department of Justice. We have Matthew Taylor, general counsel and director of criminal law policy, and Chelsea Moore, counsel in criminal law policy.

I want to welcome them here.

I also want to thank all the others—the analysts, clerks and interpreters—who worked so late last night, on Valentine's Day. I really appreciate all of your work. To the clerk and all of the staff back here, thank you so much.

Mr. Garrison, you have a question or a point of order.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I trust that the minister is not here today due to a scheduling conflict, and that he has every intention of appearing, since we have six sessions. I know he's had the benefit of direct discussion with the premiers.

I'm just asking for confirmation that we will eventually see the minister as per these hearings.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

My understanding is, yes, we have confirmation that he will be coming. I think it's right after the break, at one of the meetings then. I don't have in front of me the exact one, but we have confirmation that he will be attending.

I will give you 10 minutes, because it is a deep topic, unless your submissions are only five, but you have 10 minutes.

February 15th, 2023 / 4:30 p.m.

Matthew Taylor General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

I think we're somewhere in between, Mr. Chair. We targeted seven. If I talk quickly, it's five. If I talk slowly, it will be 10.

Thanks very much for the opportunity to be here today to support you and to participate in your study on Canada's bail regime.

Canada's laws on bail provisions are clear and define the framework within which the accused must be released or detained before trial for the offences they have been charged with committing.

As set out in subsection 515(1) of the Criminal Code, an accused must be released unless the prosecutor shows cause why detention is necessary. This starting point reflects our Common Law tradition, and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the presumption of innocence and the right not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause.

Although the starting point is release, it is important to note that it is not automatically guaranteed and is not authorized if there is just cause for detention.

Subsection 515(10) of the Criminal Code sets out justification for detention in custody of the accused: to ensure his or her attendance in court; for the protection or safety of the public, having regard to all the circumstances including any substantial likelihood that the accused will reoffend; to maintain confidence in the administration of justice.

Each ground constitutes an independent basis upon which bail can be denied, and the decision on whether to detain under these grounds will be informed by the evidence available to the court, including the criminal record of the accused. For example, that the accused used a firearm or other weapon or that they have a history of violent offending may militate against their release on public safety grounds.

These same factors may also support a decision to detain someone on public confidence grounds, but public safety is not the only frame by which the public confidence ground applies. Other factors that matter in this context include the strength of the case against the accused, the seriousness of the alleged offence, and the circumstances surrounding its commission.

This public confidence ground is about balancing all relevant factors and recognizes that public confidence in the bail system is essential to its proper functioning and to the proper functioning of the justice system as a whole.

The grounds for detention anchor the bail system, and they do not change depending on who must show whether detention is warranted. They are not altered by the fact that a court must also take into consideration other factors, including the principle of restraint, which is found in section 493.1, or that the accused is indigenous or from a vulnerable population that is overrepresented in the criminal justice system.

In other words, a court is still required to detain someone if there is just cause to do so and there are no appropriate means of addressing the risk if the accused is released. Those appropriate means could include impositions of conditions as part of a bail plan—reasonable and relevant conditions.

Canada's bail laws provide clear guidance on who is responsible for demonstrating when detention is warranted. The default, as is the case for most aspects of criminal law, is that the state bears the responsibility to show why detention is warranted.

However, there are a number of cases where it falls to the accused to show why they should not be detained. These reverse onuses reflect Parliament's intention to make it more difficult for an accused to obtain release in certain situations that align with the grounds of detention—the grounds that I talked about earlier. As such, these reverse onuses may operate like a shortcut. Examples of reverse onuses include cases where an accused is charged with organized crime or terrorism offences, certain offences committed with firearms, or cases of intimate partner violence where the accused has been previously convicted for the same.

In the end, however, these reverse onuses don't guarantee detention. Detention must still be justified on the three grounds.

I think you're all aware, and I think I've heard you speak to this already, that the Prime Minister has committed to working closely with the provinces and territories to ensure that our bail system—meaning our bail laws in the Criminal Code and their implementation by the provinces and territories—is working effectively. This commitment followed a January letter that was sent to him by all premiers, advocating for a new reverse onus, amongst other things.

You may wish to note that FPT collaboration on bail is long-standing. Significant collaboration led to the development of the bail reforms in former Bill C-75. Since last fall—preceding the letter from the premiers—we have been working closely with the provinces and territories on bail issues, including how the bail system responds to repeat violent offending. This work continues.

Minister Lametti has recently called for a special meeting of justice and public safety ministers on bail. We expect that will occur in the next few weeks. The meeting will provide an opportunity for all jurisdictions to identify concrete ways to address current challenges to ensure that any solutions proposed do not negatively affect the achievement of other important objectives, and to affirm core principles.

That concludes our remarks.

We appreciate your attention and look forward to answering any questions you have.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you. That was great timing, only six minutes.

We'll go to our first round of questions, beginning with Mr. Caputo for six minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Chair, and thank you both for being here. I apologize if I get to some nitty-gritty, but these are important questions.

If you look at section 515, and particularly 515(6) and 524 of the code, I take it you'd agree that generally anybody who is under release for one set of charges and is alleged to commit another offence, particularly a hybrid offence, is subject to a reverse onus. Is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Chelsea Moore Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Yes, that's correct. Under section 515(6) there's a reverse onus if the allegation involves a breach of certain conditions of bail, a summons or any other court order.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Exactly.

Getting into a reverse onus is not a rare thing. Would you agree with that?

4:35 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Chelsea Moore

I'm not sure. I think I'd have to look at the data before I would say if it's rare or not.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

It's certainly not rare that somebody has a breach of bail before the courts.

Can we acknowledge that?

4:35 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Chelsea Moore

Again, I can't confirm if it's rare. It does happen that someone comes before the court with a breach of bail.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I can't give evidence, but I can say it's a pretty regular occurrence that somebody is in a breach of bail situation.

I'm going to talk about three cases that have really changed the bail landscape. They are Antic, Zora and St-Cloud.

Are you familiar with all three of those cases?

4:40 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Okay.

I want to get at a bit of a tension that we're looking at here. For reverse onus, if you read the reverse onus provision, it really should be such that a person who breaches generally should be detained, absent the accused showing cause why they shouldn't be detained. In other words, the accused must show a justification for release. Is that correct?

If you look at the wording of section 515(6), provisions under section 524 or I think it's section 512.3, on all of those provisions it appears that Parliament's intention was to create a burden—and a high burden at that—for release in the reverse onus.

Would you agree with that?

4:40 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Chelsea Moore

Yes, they signal Parliament's intent to make it more difficult to obtain bail for the offences that are listed.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Certainly. If people are regularly satisfying the reverse onus, either people are getting good at satisfying the reverse onus or Parliament's intent isn't being followed.

Can we agree there?

4:40 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Chelsea Moore

I'm not following. Do you mean in a specific case?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

No, I mean just generally. The whole point of reverse onus is to make it more difficult for a person to achieve bail.

Perhaps I'll take a step back. The reverse onus or the application of reverse onus is meant so that people have a much higher burden to climb in order to achieve bail.

Is that correct?

4:40 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Chelsea Moore

The burden is on the accused, as opposed to being on the Crown.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Yes. The point is that they have to show cause, not the Crown.

Probably before we get too deep into that line of thinking, I'm going to go to something a bit more germane, perhaps.

We have Bill C-75, and we have Antic, Zora and St-Cloud. Now, St-Cloud is a tertiary ground case, but it's a bail case. It's been a couple of years, but my reading of St-Cloud is that detention on the tertiary ground should not be rare. In other words, it is okay for detention on the tertiary ground to be frequent.

Did you take that away from the case, too?

4:40 p.m.

Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Chelsea Moore

Yes. It shouldn't be limited to exceptional circumstance.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Exactly. It shouldn't be limited to the worst case, either.

For those following along, the “tertiary ground” is that it would shock a Canadian if this person were released.

Did I summarize that fairly, in basic terms?

4:40 p.m.

General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Matthew Taylor

I think you're right. The court talks about the public's confidence and a well-informed citizen who understands the principles and objectives of the bail regime, but I think shocking the conscious is probably a good shortcut for describing those kinds of situations.