Justice Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I would not give a blanket answer on people in detention, save accepting the advice that I have already provided.

Repeat violent offenders are serious, prolific offenders who continue to victimize communities and who use weapons and firearms in the commission of an offence. Those offenders need to be detained in custody until they have had their trial.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Perfect. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Brière.

Next we'll go to Monsieur Fortin for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Carrique, for being here with us.

I also want to offer my condolences on the death of your colleague. These are things we hope never to have to experience in life.

As far as the matter of bail before us today in committee, I would like your opinion on the repercussions of certain other legislative moves.

I touched on it with the previous group of witnesses.

No so long ago, we adopted Bill C‑5, which repeals minimum sentences for certain offences, including firearm related offences. We are talking about discharging a firearm with intent, which seems like a relatively serious crime to me, and for that type of offence, Bill C‑5 provides that there is no longer a minimum sentence.

In your opinion, does such a decision by a legislator have an impact on a judge's assessment when it comes to releasing the accused on bail?

In your experience, will there be consideration for the fact that the crime the individual is accused of committing is possibly less serious since the legislator just repealed the minimum sentence for that very crime?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Thank you for expressing your condolences.

I don't know that I am qualified to speak to what a judge may take from those legislative changes, but as a police officer I can tell you that it sends a message that those offences are deemed less serious when minimum penalties are abolished. The minimum penalties send a strong message that these are among the most serious offences that require the most consequences and justice to ensure the protection of Canadians.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Likewise, Mr. Carrique, some prohibitions have been repealed. For example, some sentences can now be served in the community for offences where that was previously not possible.

These are called conditional sentences. They are sentences that individuals will serve in the community instead of in prison.

Some of these sentences could not previously be imposed for certain offences, but can now, including in cases of sexual assault. A person who commits a sexual assault offence can receive a conditional sentence.

Do you think that this is something that might be considered by the court?

For example, an individual is charged with sexual assault and there is a hearing for a conditional release. Is this not a way of saying that since sexual assault is now assigned a sentence that can be served in the community there is no need to detain the individual before his trial?

What is your opinion on that?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

If I understand the question correctly, sir—please forgive me if I'm losing pieces of it—I believe that where the sentencing restricts a judge in what they can impose in terms of sentencing if the accused person is convicted, it will have an impact on decisions made related to bail and judicial interim release conditions.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

You are a police officer. Using your experience as a police officer, I would like you to talk about the consequences of these decisions in the criminal world.

For example, are people going to take this type of offence less seriously? Are they potentially going to commit these offences more lightly than they would have when the legislator provided minimum sentences for this type of offence?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I can rely on the statistics that are available to us.

Between 2018 and the end of 2022, we saw a 72% increase in cases of serious violence involving accused persons reoffending while on release for previous serious offences. I think those statistics speak for themselves.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay.

You do have recommendations. Could you sum up in a few seconds what we should do immediately to eradicate this problem and ensure that dangerous criminals are not released?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I think we can very quickly make the legislative amendments that are required to expand on reverse onus provisions and to codify what public safety considerations need to be weighed when considering interim release. These are very straightforward. A number of private members' bills have been introduced. There are recommendations from the chiefs right across the country.

They are not wide-spanning changes that are required. They are very responsibly focused. I think they can be done very effectively and very immediately.

I will draw your attention to a 2008 resolution from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, almost 15 years ago, that made these very similar basic recommendations. If we reflect on the amount of victimization that could have been prevented had somebody taken responsibility to make those changes 15 years ago, we could have saved a lot of victims and a lot of families a lot of heartache.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Carrique.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Next is Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the commissioner for being with us today.

I want to join my colleagues in expressing my condolences to the force for the loss of a member. I know, as a former police board member municipally, that any time the members suffer serious violence or death, it has a major impact on the force.

I wonder if you could say a little about how you feel this has impacted the OPP.

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Thank you, sir, for expressing your condolences, and thank you for previously serving on a police services board.

It has dramatically impacted our members and Greg's family. Their lives are changed forever. We will have police officers who will never come back to work because they have been so dramatically impacted by this. We have others who will live in fear of every radio call and every traffic stop they make. We have their partners and their children living in fear every time they walk out the door to go to work.

These are not conditions that those we rely upon for the sanctity, safety and security of our communities should have to face. We, as officials, have the ability to make some meaningful change that will bring some peace to them, some resolve, and ensure that we have their best interest and safety in mind.

There's no other profession in which each and every day they risk not only their personal safety but also their psychological well-being, and the sanctity of their families, for our safety and well-being.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you for making that clear to all of us.

I want to ask a question about the person who is charged with Constable Pierzchala's murder. I always make it a practice never to say the offender's name in public, because some of them seek that notoriety.

Do you believe the judge had full information on the previous misdeeds of this offender when the judge was making the bail decision?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Yes, I do.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

In that case—and I appreciate that you said you're taking a narrow scope here—would the reverse onus of the conditions of bail have led to a different outcome of that bail hearing, in your opinion?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I think they very likely could have, not only the reverse onus conditions but the codified public safety considerations that need to be weighed against the other very meaningful circumstances that a judge or a justice must take into consideration. Codifying those public safety considerations would be very helpful, I believe, moving forward.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

By that, do you mean having an explicit list in the Criminal Code of things that must be considered in terms of public safety?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Yes, sir.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You also spoke about a definition of a prolific violent offender. I think that's what you called it. Is that the second thing you're calling for? Would that mean specifying the number of offences and kinds of offences in the Criminal Code?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

That's exactly what that would entail, sir, yes, specifying the types of offences and, in some cases, the number of offences that one would have previously been convicted of in order to be defined as a repeat violent offender or a serious prolific offender, deciding on one of those two definitions and what that definition would be.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I appreciate the very practical suggestions that you're making for the committee. Quite often we have lots of rhetoric but not so much on the practical end. Thank you for that.

Also, again, you said a very narrow scope, and I think it's important for us to keep in mind that there are—I don't know the exact number—probably somewhere between 50,000 and 70,000 people who achieve bail in Ontario in a given year. When you talk about 587, that's obviously too large a number, but, of the bail system as a whole, it's a very small number of the cases. Would you agree with that?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

It is a small number of the cases, and I know there are many former Crown attorneys around this table, or a number anyways. We know it's a small number of offenders who commit the majority of violent offences, and it is those prolific offenders that we are focused on.