Justice Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

That is correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There was a breakdown in terms of the decision that the justice made at the bail review stage.

There was a breakdown in the level of supervision that his own mother was providing to this individual.

This individual, you would agree with me, was released on the highest rung of that proverbial ladder that the Supreme Court of Canada references in Antic: house arrest, electronic monitoring, not possessing any weapons and not being out at all unless he is with his mother for court appearances and attendance at his lawyer's office.

You couldn't get a stronger release than what the justice released that individual on. Would you agree?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I would agree.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Yet that very same individual disregarded everything the justice had said, including not attending his very first court date.

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

That is correct, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

With the little amount of time that I have, I'm going to ask you specifically: What reforms and what amendments would you like this committee to consider, sir?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Thank you.

To expand the reference I made to paragraph 515(10)(b) in my opening statement, on those public safety considerations that need to be given due weight and consideration, I would like to see expansion of reverse onus provisions for firearm possession offences as they relate to repeat violent offenders or serious prolific offenders; a definition of “serious prolific offender” or “repeat violent offender”; codified public safety considerations before bail is granted; and greater surety accountability for those who take responsibility for those who have been released.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to cede my last 30 seconds to my colleague.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Commissioner, and I believe everybody on this committee sends their condolences on the loss of your fallen officer. It's people like you and people like him and all of you who keep us safe, so thank you.

Commissioner, I recently tabled Bill C-313. Have you had a chance to review that bill?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I have, sir, yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Are you able to provide any commentary on that to this committee in a few seconds, or on your position on it?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

It is very consistent with the recommendations you have heard from me thus far before this committee, and very consistent with the recommendations I'm hearing from other police leaders right across this country.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Caputo and Mr. Brock.

We'll next go to Ms. Brière for six minutes.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Carrique.

Allow me also to express my condolences to you following the death of your colleague. I also want to thank you for ensuring the safety of the people of Ontario.

I have listened to your comments. You talked about important and responsible changes. You answered questions asked by my colleague, Mr. Brock.

Could you elaborate on the important changes you are proposing?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Thank you.

The changes I am proposing you will find in my opening comments as they relate to codifying what needs to be given weight as public safety considerations: the expansion of reverse-onus provisions as they relate to firearm-related offences and repeat violent or serious prolific offenders, and greater surety accountability.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you believe that it is out of a lack of information that judges sometimes make unfortunate decisions?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

No, I don't believe it's as a result of a lack of information. I believe it is the interpretation of the legislation that is currently provided to them to work within, and I think there's an opportunity to modernize that legislation to ensure that appropriate weight is given to not only upholding the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights but ensuring public safety. There's definite direction that is required in legislation. As currently written, the legislation is, for the most case, being appropriately interpreted, but further direction needs to be codified.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you have confidence in our judiciary and those who make decisions on parole?

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

I think every case has to be weighed on its own merits. I believe that there is reform that can take place that will assist those who are entrusted with those very difficult decisions, so that they have the appropriate legislation to assist them in making decisions that are in the best interests of public safety.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

You also know that the accused's release is the rule and detention is the exception.

Do you think that your proposed changes would somewhat counter the presumption of innocence and the constitutional right to be released while awaiting trial?

There are two components to my question: the presumption of innocence and the possibility of being released until trial.

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

That's a very important question.

I do believe in the presumption of innocence under the charter, and in being entitled to reasonable bail at the earliest opportunity and on the least onerous terms unless justified otherwise. However, reverse-onus requirements are absolutely essentially needed for repeat violent offenders who use weapons in the commission of violent offences. In those cases, the onus clearly should be on the accused to show why they ought not to be detained and that public safety is given the appropriate consideration and weight so that we don't see more violence in our communities at the hands of these offenders.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you think that depending on the nature of the crime some people should not be incarcerated and instead benefit from rehabilitation in the community or a similar option to avoid recidivism?

We know that detention can be conducive to people committing crime after their release.

[Commr Thomas Carrique]

Absolutely. I believe in the principles of the charter and the principles on which bail is constructed. However, we are talking about a very select number of repeat violent offenders who have a criminal history of committing violent crimes and using firearms in the commission of those offences. My scope is very narrow, very responsible, very impactful and extremely essential to public safety.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

As far as public safety is concerned—something that concerns me deeply—what can we do to better protect the victims?

Obviously, you will tell me to keep people detained. However, what can we do in a broader sense?