Justice Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[Talal Dakalbab]

My pleasure.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Ms. Efford, do you think there are provisions the committee could add to the bill to allow for better monitoring and ensure that an individual who has been granted bail or conditional release does not reoffend?

I know the figures you shared with the committee show that it doesn't happen that often, and that's great. It does happen, though, and the premiers are worried. They wrote a letter on the subject to the Prime Minister of Canada not that long ago, in fact.

What can we do to more effectively monitor individuals, accused, who are out on bail or conditional release?

[C/Supt Sue Efford]

It's a challenging question from a policing perspective. I don't have numerous ideas right now—not that I couldn't consult and come back to the committee if that would suit.

Ultimately, for the RCMP, we are responsible for enforcing the law. In the case of monitoring supervision of concerns for breaches, we don't have infinite resources. There are so many who are on conditions that being able to monitor and effectively monitor them presents a significant challenge, to say the least, for policing.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

All right.

Do you have any ideas on how to make sure the courts take these crimes more seriously despite the elimination of the mandatory minimum sentences?

[C/Supt Sue Efford]

I do not have that response with me, but I can certainly reach out to our provincial leaders within the RCMP and seek the suggestions, if you wish, and endeavour to get back to the committee in writing.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I would appreciate it if you could get back to us with that information.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

Next it's Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the officials for sticking with us through this process.

I want to go back to Chief Superintendent Efford. You mentioned the police service agreements, which set priorities on policing. What priorities do those agreements give to supervising bail conditions and breaches of bail conditions? That's what directs you as the RCMP, in terms of the contract policing, so do those agreements give any priority to that?

[C/Supt Sue Efford]

Unfortunately, to answer that accurately, I would have to take it back and ask the people who are dealing with the provincial and territorial agreements, who actually understand the priorities. I would endeavour to return with that response in writing.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

That would be useful for the committee, because I think that's where we have a problem in terms of.... I'm not seeking to find the guilty party here, but the public would like to see—and I think we've heard this quite often—better supervision of bail conditions. That would increase public safety and confidence in the system.

However, if the provinces aren't making that a priority in their policing contracts, that's a problem that we need to attack from both ends.

Mr. Dakalbab, do you want to weigh in?

[Talal Dakalbab]

Yes, if you don't mind, as I am the contract authority for contract policing on behalf of the minister. The RCMP is the operational arm, but the negotiations with the provinces and territories on the terms and conditions of the contract happen with the Department of Public Safety and me personally, so I'll be more than happy to tell you.

I just came back last week, actually, from two consultations to hear from communities in Manitoba and Alberta on contract policing. I met with mayors. I met with indigenous communities. I met with a lot of provincial colleagues. We are working more and more toward local governance through contract policing to ensure that.... Canada is a big country—I always say that—and to police Canada through contract policing with one size fits all is extremely complex. Quite frankly, it's not very productive for the needs of our citizens in Canada.

I would say that we are working closely with each jurisdiction, each province, and even with the municipalities, to ensure that local governments are having more and more say in the contracts and priorities they are identifying within the resources and funding they have. Whether it's bail or something else, that's where the negotiation with the CO in each division will happen. They will be establishing these priorities accordingly. Canada is not dictating, per se, what they should do or what they need to work on.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you. That's quite useful.

I have a similar question. I guess it goes back first to Chief Superintendent Efford. Once the courts have recognized that there are breaches of bail conditions, and they issue a bench warrant, what priority does that have in terms of the many responsibilities the RCMP has? In some of the very high-profile cases we've been talking about, bench warrants were issued, but for whatever reason the person still wasn't back in custody.

Again, maybe that's a function of those agreements. I'm not sure.

[Talal Dakalbab]

It is a big challenge—I'm not going to lie to you—in the sense that there are a lot of priorities. In rural areas it's not always that easy. The Government of Canada and the provinces and territories are looking at a pan-Canadian rural crime framework to address the specific concerns you're raising. The resources of the RCMP—even in Quebec and Ontario, according to my colleagues—are quite limited once we get out of the urban areas. It is a challenge that we're aware of and are trying to work on, not only through policing. Quite frankly, they have their own challenge in recruiting, so we're trying to be more creative with community-based support and with what kinds of services we can provide differently.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I have to just say that I wouldn't call my riding “rural”. I'd call it “suburban”. The RCMP is the policing authority in my riding, but we see these challenges with resources and priorities all the time. Quite often the public's perception of what should be a priority and perhaps what the province has asked the RCMP to have as a priority don't seem to align very well, so—

[Talal Dakalbab]

Even in urban areas these problems are present.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Yes.

I don't have much time, but I have one last question. I may not have the right person in front of me to answer this question.

We've had a large problem in Nunavut with long periods of pretrial detention. Corrections Canada was previously responsible, but I believe we're in a transition period whereby Nunavut is taking over responsibility for corrections facilities and pretrial detention.

I don't know, Mr. Dakalbab, if you can help answer that.

[Talal Dakalbab]

I don't have the details. I have heard of the situation, but I don't have the details.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We had a lot of concern in the indigenous community, not just about the size of Nunavut, but also about the lack of community resources in many places. People are spending very long times in detention without any access to services. I know that Corrections Canada was previously responsible, but I've been unable to figure out where we are in that transition. I know Nunavut passed a new act in 2019 that aimed to transition to take control of those things and to institute a different approach for pretrial detention.

I probably don't have the right people here to answer that question.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Next we'll go to Mr. Brock for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their appearance today.

It's over to you, Mr. Taylor. Would you agree that the whole concept of bail reform and the need to address the problems with prolific repeat dangerous offenders is not a new phenomenon, and that in fact it's been brewing for a number of years? In fact, what really crystallized that, in my view—I don't know if you share it—was the unfortunate and tragic killing of OPP officer Pierzchala.

Would you agree with me, sir?

[Matthew Taylor]

I think that certainly was a moment that crystallized, for many people, the urgency of the situation. I think you're aware—as we've discussed previously—that we had been looking at these issues prior to that. However, certainly that was a catalyst for the urgency.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sure.

It really crystallized and mobilized a lot of the support and advocacy groups across this country, with premiers, AGs, mayors, police chiefs, police associations and the like. Is that correct?

[Matthew Taylor]

Absolutely.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I want to talk briefly about the Randall McKenzie matter. He is an accused. He has the presumption of innocence; I do acknowledge that. He was released after a bail review. My colleague, Frank Caputo, raised this with a defence witness this past Monday. We really haven't heard much evidence on the frailties, in my view, of our bail review system.

Under section 520 of the Criminal Code—I'm sure you're familiar with the language, but for the benefit of Canadians watching this and our committee members—there are two areas in which you can bring a bail review: where there's an error in principle in the actual order itself from the lower court, or where there's a material change in circumstances that will make it unjust not to vacate the order.

Mr. Taylor, with the resources I've been able to access with respect to the evidence, it's clear that Mr. McKenzie was denied bail at the Ontario court level by a Justice of the Peace, given his prolific repeat behaviour of breaching orders, breaching firearm orders, and given the significant, serious nature of the substantive offence. Regardless of the plan—which included house arrest, electronic monitoring and a surety—the Justice of the Peace felt that the tertiary grounds were activated, and he was detained on the tertiary grounds.

Six months later, he ended up in bail review in Hamilton. He is indigenous, and Gladue factors were referenced at the lower level. The same Gladue factors were talked about at the superior court level. However, he changed the deck.

I often saw this in my previous career. If you get one kick at the can and you don't choose the right surety—that surety gets rejected, or the plan gets rejected—then you just shuffle the deck. You go to the superior court, get a new surety, maybe add a few conditions, add to the quantum of the promise to pay, and take your chances.

In this particular case, it was the same terms that he had advanced in the lower court and the same amount by way of a promise to pay, but he swapped up the surety—it was originally the girlfriend—to his mother. Clearly, we have a disconnect here in terms of community safety.

Sir, I believe you to be the lead...the highest legal officer at the Department of Justice. Is that accurate?

[Matthew Taylor]

It certainly is not, although I appreciate the compliment.