Justice Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I was prepared to give that to you, sir. I was prepared to give you that honour.

Well, you're held in high esteem at the Department of Justice.

Is there any sort of appetite to tighten up the weak bail review system that we have across this country?

[Matthew Taylor]

There are a few things.

I think Minister Lametti has been very clear that he's open to any good idea. He said that when he appeared.

We have had some discussions with our provincial and territorial partners. Bail review—speaking candidly—has not been prominent in those discussions. I know it is something that we're aware of and that we're following. Obviously, the circumstances of Constable Pierzchala and that case bring this to the forefront. However, it is not something that has been the primary focus of the advocacy to date.

The primary focus, as I think you know, has been on what we can do around the tightening of the rules governing the initial decision on whether to release or detain a repeat violent offender.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Would there be an appetite at the department for a private member's bill to tighten up section 520 of the Criminal Code?

[Matthew Taylor]

As you absolutely know, we support the government in analyzing any private member's legislation that comes forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Next, for our final five minutes, we have Mr. Naqvi.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

It's good to have some experts at the table—not to suggest that the minister is not an expert, but you are both there, Mr. Dakalbab and Mr. Taylor, involved every day from a frontline perspective in law enforcement, working at the policy level, and I'm sure liaising with your provincial counterparts as well.

Discussion around bail is not unusual. Every little while we hear some discussion in terms of which way the pendulum is swinging, and it's perhaps a healthy tension within the system.

I wonder how many of the issues that we are trying to deal with here at a policy level, from the perspective of the Criminal Code, are really an issue around administration of justice matters, which is a provincial responsibility. I'm not asking you to pass the buck or lay the blame, but in your conversations with your FPT counterparts, how much of that fulsome discussion is taking place in the room, where policy needs to be reformed, but then, from an administration of justice perspective, where things need to happen as well?

I leave it for any one of you to start, to pick up the ball.

[Talal Dakalbab]

I'll start, if that's okay.

I think it was made clear by my minister, Minister Mendicino, and by Minister Lametti, that not only one solution is required, and it's not a question of blaming. It's a holistic responsibility of both federal and provincial...and frontline officers, quite frankly, in my opinion. Looking at the Criminal Code is one, but that will not solve the problem. For sure, we need to continue looking at other ways of doing it, whether it's through prevention and intervention or funding, resources and better training for our police officers, better monitoring conditions for bail or parole, or whatever kinds of conditions.

Honestly, I believe that everybody is committed. From my discussions with my colleagues at the provincial level and the federal partners, I think everybody is working very hard to put their heads together to look at the proper innovative ideas that we could bring forward, whether legal or policy, or from intervention. I think the work we are doing right now will lead us to answer these questions properly on how best we can mitigate the risks from all angles, and not only from one perspective, which would be the legislative perspective.

I don't know if my colleague Mr. Taylor wants to add anything else.

[Matthew Taylor]

Just quickly, not to take your time, it is absolutely the case. If you look at the statement that was released by the ministers from the March 10 meeting, you see there is an acknowledgement that there's an important place for law reform, but there's also a place for non-legislative measures. You can have the best laws, the clearest laws, but if they're not implemented properly, then they are not worth their salt.

I would just validate everything that Mr. Dakalbab has said.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

When I was involved at the provincial level in Ontario, one of the biggest challenges we were facing—this was prepandemic; I want to recognize that—was that two-thirds of the population in provincial detention centres in Ontario were in remand. That was a high number. The numbers in Ontario at that time were close to 8,000 people in provincial detention centres, and about 5,000 of them were not convicted yet. They were charged, but there was no conviction.

That was a high number. The majority of them, when you looked at the data, had serious mental health and addiction issues. We had, obviously, deteriorating conditions in our detention centres. The question that always kept coming up when I spoke to people who provided those frontline services was whether we were making the circumstances of those individuals worse by putting them in detention centres as opposed to keeping them in the community and providing them wraparound services, as the terminology goes, around mental health and addictions. We actually created something called bail beds in Ontario at that time, which I think is still operational, to allow for individuals to be in a secure facility but out in the community with minimal conditions, still getting their necessary support.

Are those types of solutions, which I would argue are not innovative or creative solutions, part of the conversation that you are having with your FPT colleagues as you look at reforming the bail system?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Talal Dakalbab]

Actually, Public Safety is offering stigma awareness training to police officers across Canada to address the kind of harm reduction approach that is necessary to avoid having these people in prison. It's not necessarily just part of the bail discussion. Overall, it's part of the discussion about the opiate crisis and the other addictions to drugs we have in Canada.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.

I want to thank all the witnesses for your valuable testimony, and, once again, for coming here.

I want to thank the students and Professor Jackman in the back. Hopefully you've found this invigorating and entertaining, as we do.

Thank you. I will now adjourn the meeting, and we'll see you all next week.