Justice Committee on March 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Clamen.

Next we will begin rounds of two and a half minutes with Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Smith, do you agree with Ms. Clamen and her organization that it would be better to simply abolish the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, and thus decriminalize prostitution, or do you believe that we still need to better regulate the work of sex workers?

[Sarah Smith]

I don't see the translation option on my screen.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

At the bottom of your screen there's a little button for interpretation. Do you have it?

[Sarah Smith]

At the bottom of my screen—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, can you explain to Ms. Smith how to access the interpretation?

[Sarah Smith]

Sophie, if you have it, could you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I'll ask Mr. Clerk—

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Jean-François Pagé]

It's at the bottom of your screen.

[Sarah Smith]

Is that on my screen where I have the full grid of everybody?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Maybe Ms. Ciavarella could answer me, in that case, because I don't want to spend two minutes working on the...

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

It says something like “options” or three dots. It's a globe.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

The question is being answered. Can we mute, please?

[Sophia Ciavarella]

We are a member of the alliance with Jenn Clamen and Maggie's, and we are fully in support of decriminalization. We don't believe that this law supports sex workers at all. We believe it harms sex workers, as Ms. Duffy and Ms. Clamen have made extremely clear. We don't believe it's salvageable in any way.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

In your opinion, should measures be put in place to help people involved in the sex industry? Do you believe that the people concerned do not need anything besides the measures...

[Sophia Ciavarella]

We believe decriminalization is the best help for people in the sex industry, and a focus away from criminalization and more on social services. As Ms. Duffy explained, there are already provisions in the Criminal Code for robbery, for assault, for kidnapping, for any crime that sex workers might experience, so we strongly believe that more attention should be spent away from criminalization on correcting social services and combatting systemic oppression, which is—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We don't have much time left, but perhaps you could talk about the implications...

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Sorry, Mr. Fortin. We're out of time.

I'm going to have to go to Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to ask a question about two pieces of statistics that have been often cited before the committee. One is a Statistics Canada report which shows that somehow the situation has improved under PCEPA, and the other is a report on trafficking in New Zealand which purports to show that trafficking has increased.

Ms. Clamen, would you comment on whether you believe that these two reports actually reflect the reality that sex workers are experiencing?

[Jenn Clamen]

I would have to take a really good look at the methodology. I'm not clear on what questions were asked in order to create that. I'd encourage all of you to have the same approach when you look at any statistics.

One of the things that I think we can suggest by understanding the way concepts are used is that when you look at the concept of trafficking, it very often captures people who are Asian and migrant. You heard from Elene Lam. You'll also hear from Alison Clancey from SWAN after this, who will explain to you how migrant workers get trapped in definitions of human trafficking. If the statistics are demonstrating that the TIP Report is suggesting an increase, that might be because migrant workers aren't allowed to work. That would just be my hypothesis.

There was a second part of that I wanted to respond to. In terms of the arrests that are being made, again, the committee needs to understand.... I don't know where those statistics were collected from and in what ways. It doesn't necessarily represent the number of people who have come into contact with law enforcement. I think it only represents the convictions. You can imagine that there are a lot of people who get arrested all the time. They get thrown into jail and then maybe the charges don't stick, but police really use whatever they have in their arsenal. They use those sex work laws often.

The impacts of PCEPA go well beyond arrest. It impacts sex workers' lives in terms of housing, child apprehension, violence and an inability to maintain income. What that report doesn't capture are all of the impacts of PCEPA. They might capture the actual arrests or conviction rates, but it doesn't capture what the impacts are of the law.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I have 30 seconds left. There's not really time for another full question.

I just wanted to say once again how much I really appreciate the testimony from all three sets of witnesses today in bringing in the voices of sex workers and the actual experience to the committee. Thank you once again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Similarly, I want to thank all of the witnesses who have come today for this first round.

I will suspend for a minute and ask the witnesses who have already spoken to go off camera.

We'll do a quick sound check for the witnesses who are going to be speaking in the next round.

We'll now resume.

For those who haven't heard it in the last round, I have quick cue cards. In the last 30 seconds I'll raise the yellow card, and the red card is when you're done.

You'll have five minutes to speak on behalf of your organization. Subsequently, after all three organizations have spoken, we'll have rounds of questions in which you'll be able to elaborate more.

I see Mr. Fortin's hand is up. Do you have a question, Mr. Fortin?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would simply like to bring to your attention...

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I would like to bring to your attention the fact that at one point earlier the interpretation stopped working. I am not blaming you for that, but I would like to make sure that the witnesses have access to it and that we do not lose half a minute when I ask questions.

I'll tell you right away, my questions will always be in French, so I'd like to make sure that the witnesses have access to the interpretation and that we don't waste time for nothing. Since we're already losing some time with the interpretation, I'd like to make sure that at the very least it's accessible.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Ms. Clancey, Ms. Lindstrom and Ms. Jay, do you all have your interpretation set to the language of your choice?