Justice Committee on March 4th, 2022

[Alison Clancey]

There are already a multitude of laws in the Criminal Code of Canada that can be enforced to prevent trafficking from happening or to keep the situation from evolving into a full-blown trafficking situation. For example, if a woman is being assaulted or exploited, there are already offences in the Criminal Code that can be enforced. Perhaps she can remove herself or seek the justice that she requires before a situation turns into a trafficking situation. There are also trafficking laws in the Criminal Code.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to ask Ms. Stevenson one last question.

Thank you again for your touching testimony, Ms. Stevenson...

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Madame Brière, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but your time is up.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I'll go over to Mr. Fortin for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Stevenson.

In your testimony, you were telling us that we should distinguish between prostitution and human trafficking, which I think is obviously self-evident. No one will disagree with that.

However, when you tell us that, I take it that prostitution is, in your view, a proper and tolerable activity that should be supervised and supported, whereas human trafficking is a criminal act that should obviously be criminally prosecuted.

Furthermore, you say that you support the legislation arising from Bill C‑36 and that you do not believe it should be abolished. I would like you to explain clearly your position on this matter. Indeed, since the bill has had the effect of criminalizing the purchase of prostitution, if I can use that expression, this is detrimental to sex workers who would like to file a complaint. That, at least, is what the other witnesses told us.

Where exactly do you stand on this issue? Do you think this law should be abolished or kept? If you think this law should stay in place, I'd like to hear from you on how we can improve it.

[Alexandra Stevenson, Ford]

Thank you for the question.

I want to clarify—and it might have been because I had a hard time hearing the translation—that in my original statement I was trying to suggest that we have to stop saying that sex work and trafficking are completely separate issues. As far as I am concerned, they are deeply connected, and that was my experience.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay.

[Alexandra Stevenson, Ford]

To answer your question about Bill C-36, I think we need to keep it. I briefly touched on this but I think it would help the current workers who keep hearing that sex workers are marginalized and in survival mode and for multiple reasons unable to move beyond that survival mode.

Decriminalization would certainly help these workers move within their survival mode more freely but it would be unlikely to provide resources to give these workers a leg up and to get them out of that survival mode. As far as I'm concerned, widespread resources and education to prevent people from existing in a survival mode that results in the sale of their own bodies is the best way to create foundational change.

Decriminalization and repealing PCEPA, as I said, would certainly result in those short-term benefits but the long-term detriments of having more people being exploited due to increased demand and the overall continued lack of resources that result in the sale and commodification of human bodies would continue to be an issue.

We need to keep PCEPA and work together to provide resources so we don't see people having to work the streets because they are in survival mode.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Stevenson.

Ms. Jay, earlier you made some recommendations that would improve the provisions of the legislation that came out of Bill C-36. I'd like to know if you have a document on this subject. Have you prepared a brief where your recommendations could be found?

I can't see Ms. Jay and I don't know if she left the meeting. Is she still on the line, Mr. Chair?

[Suzanne Jay]

I am here, but I can't hear the.... I'm on the English translation channel, but I can't hear the translator. It's incredibly difficult to hear anything she's saying.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like you to stop the clock for my questions and resolve the interpretation issue, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Yes, I can suspend for a minute while we get the interpretation tested.

Ms. Jay, I think the English translator is just a quieter person, probably, than Mr. Fortin. You might have to raise the volume at your end. Try that and see if it works. I will start back with Mr. Fortin.

Does anyone have their hand up? If not, I will resume.

Mr. Fortin, you have about two and a half minutes left.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, half of my six minutes of speaking time has been spent dealing with interpretation issues. It's a bit annoying.

Ms. Jay, can you hear me well?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I will give you more time. Ask away, Mr. Fortin. We'll make it work.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

All right.

Ms. Jay, is the interpretation working, or am I talking to myself? You can hear me? Good.

Earlier, you told us about your recommendations to improve the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, the former Bill C‑36. Is there a document?

Have you produced a brief that contains all your recommendations to this effect? If not, are you preparing one?

[Suzanne Jay]

Yes, we sent in a very brief brief, and we were advised that you would have trouble getting translation of the documents done in time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, are we going to be able to get this document, if the translation service works?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Yes, we will, of course, in both official languages.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Ms. Jay, in a few words, since time is running out, can you explain these recommendations to me?

You believe that the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act should remain in force. I understand that you believe that it protects sex workers as well as victims of exploitation. Yet we've had witnesses come before us and say that it hurts them, because it makes sex workers reluctant to come forward.

What is your opinion on this? Wouldn't decriminalization be better?

[Suzanne Jay]

We have so little time. I would say before we move ahead that we need to verify what we mean by “sex worker”. There is a sleight of hand that's happening, where the term “sex worker” is being defined to include.... You're being tricked into believing that “sex worker” includes the people who are pimping, managing brothels, doing recruitment and facilitating through advertising. Do ask the question: What do you mean when you say “sex worker”?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I am talking about people who are prostitutes. How can we better protect them without giving an advantage to pimps, traffickers, whatever you want to call them?

[Suzanne Jay]

I think enforcement is the missing piece here. The police are not enforcing. The Crowns are not pressing charges.

The question is, the act does not cause harm to exploited people.... Where there is harm to women, it's because of the lack of enforcement. The refusal of the police to enforce the law leaves women at the mercy of the pimps and the sex buyers, who get to be as controlling and as violent as they want.

It really does harm women to know that they are deemed not worthy of protection even when the law of the country says that what is happening to them is wrong. It harms all of the women in the community when we see that other women are being sold, denigrated and hurt and nothing happens to the man or the men who caused that harm.

Before the law, women didn't go to the police, and they don't go now because the police have not changed their attitudes or their behaviour about the sex buyers. Before the act, the police arrested women almost exclusively, and after the act, in B.C., in Vancouver especially, the police stopped arresting anybody. They have effectively disappeared prostitution, because they have no numbers, no arrests, no cases.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

I have been generous with the time. Hopefully, I've been able to make up the time you might have lost.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.