Evidence of meeting #6 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I would like to go back to Ms. Clancey's opening remarks where she said that she had some important information about misinformation being used in the arguments about trafficking. I'd like to give her a chance to talk about those examples she mentioned.
2:45 p.m.
Executive Director, SWAN Vancouver Society
Thank you, Mr. Garrison.
I'd first like to start by commending you for respectfully listening to all of the witnesses throughout the hearings and to acknowledge that, at every opportunity you had, you brought this discussion back to the issue at hand, while it was being conflated with so many issues. I'd like to thank you for that.
I'll get back to the trafficking disinformation that's been presented before this committee. Quite frankly, I have found these hearings to be a national embarrassment. I'm deeply disturbed by the amount of trafficking disinformation that has been put forward and uncritically consumed. This happened in the 2014 hearings, and I expected that when the committee members came to this hearing eight years later, they would have been aware of the types of misinformation that would be put forward. I will name a few now.
Ms. Clamen earlier talked about the age of entry into the sex trade being 12 to 14 years old. In my brief, I included The Washington Post and The Atlantic investigative reports to show how that has been debunked time and time again. Within Canada, the Canadian Women's Foundation has retracted not only that claim, but all of their trafficking task force so-called research that has so harmfully informed so much trafficking policy and dialogue in Canada. If members are interested in knowing why the Canadian Women's Foundation reports on trafficking are no longer available on their website, I encourage them to connect with the Canadian Women's Foundation.
I'll also address one other piece of disinformation that I heard during the hearings. It was the claim that there was an uptick in human trafficking along with sporting events. I believe the Stampede was mentioned. This also happened in Vancouver around the 2010 Olympics. There was a lot of fearmongering by groups that traffickers were going to be bringing young girls into the country and into Vancouver. That did not materialize.
The Global Alliance Against Trafficking in Women has published empirical evidence that this trafficking does not happen. It does not happen around the Super Bowl, either. I can guarantee that Vancouver right now is considering a bid again for the Olympics. If Vancouver should be successful in its bid, this myth about the uptick in human trafficking around the Olympics will surely come around one more time, despite it not having materialized last time.
2:50 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you, Ms. Clancey, and thank you for your kind words at the beginning.
A phenomenon I've been observing in these hearings is that there tends to be some kind of presumption that PCEPA has somehow reduced the frequency of sex work. I think most of us would say that no evidence of that has been presented. Instead, what this committee is focusing on is the real impacts of PCEPA, which are making sex work increasingly more dangerous.
How do you feel about the argument that PCEPA has somehow reduced the frequency of sex work?
2:50 p.m.
Executive Director, SWAN Vancouver Society
I'd like to address the end demand aim of PCEPA. It's preposterous for Canada to think that it is going to do something that no society or any other country has ever done in the history of the world, which is to end sex work.
If the government is interested in ending demand, you don't take away the purchasers of sex. You look at poverty, the gender wage gap, housing prices and systemic racism. All of those factors are the push factors into the sex industry for some folks for whom it is a last resort, and it is the last thing that they want to be doing.
This continued conversation about ending demand via criminalizing the purchasers of sex is a colossal waste of money and resources, and it's a cover for the moral opposition to the sex industry. That is not how you protect sex workers. It will never work in Canada and it has never worked anywhere.
2:50 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you, Ms. Clancey.
Very briefly—I know I have very little time—I want to go back to Ms. Lindstrom and her remark that PCEPA makes it more difficult for those involved in sex work to address services available to others in the community.
2:50 p.m.
Program Coordinator, SafeSpace London
Absolutely, it does. That's 100% right.
One of the main programs at SafeSpace that we offer is system navigation. We are constantly coming up against walls where sex workers are not allowed access to other services, especially in organizations that receive a lot of funding through PCEPA. They will not allow access to sex workers who chose to continue to stay in sex work. This has horrible ramifications in our community, especially for street-based sex workers. Many who access SafeSpace are also experiencing homelessness—
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Ms. Lindstrom. I'm sorry to cut you off.
In the interest of time, I will ask Mr. Moore and Ms. Diab if they would be okay doing two and a half minutes. We have some quick committee business at the end.
Mr. Moore, would you be amicable to doing that?
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
You do have five minutes, but it's 2:55 p.m., so it was in the interest of time. I can extend it by five minutes, if that's okay and if it's the will of the committee.
March 4th, 2022 / 2:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
All right. Well, I'll try to ask my questions quickly.
Thank you to all the witnesses. I do have some quick questions.
Ms. Jay, you summed up very nicely the response of Bill C-36 to the Bedford decision by saying that the “exploiters are criminalized”. We do believe that this is exploitative. We heard from Ms. Stevenson about predation, about the exploiting and the exploiters. You summed it up by saying that the exploiters are criminalized and the exploited are not criminalized. I think that should be a goal that we all share.
Could you expand on that? You summed it up nicely, but could you expand on that a bit and about how PCEPA works?
2:55 p.m.
Collective Member, Asian Women for Equality
PCEPA recognizes that there is inequality between men and women. I would ask you to pay a lot of attention to the preamble, where Parliament states the purpose of the act. It recognizes the “social harm” caused by objectification. It recognizes that prostitution affects human dignity and undermines equality, and that there is a “disproportionate impact” on women and children. It says that Canada thinks it's important to “denounce and prohibit” the purchase of sexual services and prevent the normalization and commercialization of prostitution.
What's important to us about PCEPA is that it states very clearly that Canada does not want to develop economic dependency on prostitution as an industry, and—
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
I'll leave that to your liberty. You can end it at two and a half or you can have five.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB
I'll end it at two and a half. I'm trying to get along with everybody.
Ms. Stevenson, we do hear some people speak...and it's like we're pretending that this is not exploitative. You set out very clearly in your remarks, from a personal perspective, how some people who are being exploited don't even realize it until later.
Could you expand on that quickly? You mentioned the exploitative nature. Is it fair to say that this isn't exploitative in most cases?
2:55 p.m.
Alexandra Stevenson Ford
No, it's not fair to say that it's not exploitative in most cases. I spoke briefly about cognitive dissonance. We have to learn about trauma bonding as well. Especially when you're in a situation you were brought into through desperation or survival, you have to make the situation you're in as appealing as possible, or you will suffer from the mental despair of constantly wishing you were somewhere when you cannot exit the situation.
I can speak for myself and for a number of survivors I've spoken to. I talked loudly about how much I enjoyed myself, that I was partying, that I was okay with what I was doing, because I needed to believe that in order to exist.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
I'll take two and a half minutes. Thank you to my colleague Mr. Moore. I appreciate that.
Ms. Clancey, I have two questions for you. I'll ask them both now, if you don't mind, in the interest of time.
In 2008, a report from the prostitution law review committee in New Zealand showed no expansion of the sex work industry following decriminalization. Can you please comment on that? As a follow-up, do you think decriminalization in Canada would be similar and would not expand the sex work industry in Canada but allow those currently in the industry to enjoy better protections?
2:55 p.m.
Executive Director, SWAN Vancouver Society
I can't speak specifically to the report that you're quoting from, but I want to address the assertion that's been put forward before the committee that it will be a free-for-all in Canada with decriminalization. That is simply not going to happen.
It's a different issue, and marijuana was legalized, not decriminalized, but the sky did not fall when marijuana was legalized in Canada. If sex work were to be decriminalized in Canada, it doesn't mean that people are going to turn out and start working in the sex industry in greater numbers than they are right now.
I want to address that fearmongering, again, that has happened in the committee. Decriminalization will not result in more people turning to the sex industry for their income generation.
3 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you very much, Ms. Clancey.
Thank you to all of the witnesses.
Thank you, Chair.
3 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you to all of the witnesses.
Thank you, Ms. Diab.
I will now conclude this part. There is some quick committee business that I will ask the members to stay on for.
I believe the budget for the next study has been sent to you. Can we get approval for that? Apparently, we need it, particularly for headsets to be sent out. It was sent to you during the meeting. I don't have my computer with me, so I'm assuming.