Evidence of meeting #64 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was facility.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.
Last, we'll go for two rounds of two and a half minutes, beginning with Ms. Larouche.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Fry, I'd like to quickly go back to what I was saying at the end of my first round.
What is problematic is that the very prescriptive definition proposed in the bill for a “long-term care facility” does not even mention that these are facilities under provincial jurisdiction. Moreover, this definition excludes seniors who voluntarily decide to reside in these facilities, but who do not necessarily have disabilities.
So where does this definition come from, and is it consistent with Quebec and provincial laws?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
I think people who decide to go to live in a long-term care facility obviously need care. They are obviously unable to provide care for themselves. That may be because they are chronically ill or maybe frail. They don't necessarily have to be mentally ill or disabled, but they have reasons they can't take care of themselves.
They go there trusting that the people who are running the facility will give them the care they need. We need to protect them from the belief that because they are going to a facility they will get the care they need.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
You have more or less answered the question about jurisdiction and the question about where this definition comes from and whether it is consistent with the laws of Quebec and the provinces.
The bill defines the role of manager or owner and sets out a long list of duties associated with it. Again, however, these health care facilities are administered by Quebec and the provinces. So this bill may not be the right place for such a specific list.
In addition, this bill is vague. We need to know what services rendered within the institution entail. We also need to ask how broad the scope of the bill is. Does it place all the responsibility on the back of the manager or owner, even when the act involves only the employee and the vulnerable older person?
What do you have to say about the concerns we have about the bill?
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
It said very clearly who was going to be responsible in it when it defined who a “manager” is and what a “care facility” is. Who were the persons employed on a casual basis is obviously not involved in any of this definition.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Dr. Fry.
Last, we'll go to Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Once again, on this jurisdiction question, if we look at the first 15 months, there was a privately run and owned facility in Pickering, where 35% of those who got COVID died, and there was one in Dorval, privately run and administered, where 35% of those who were affected died, yet in the public institutions and the not-for-profits in both provinces, the death rates for those infected were less than half that rate.
Again, I'm going to come back to what the facts show us: that it's probably not a jurisdiction question. It's a general question of COVID and long-term care, but it's also a question of ownership. Once again, I think you'd probably agree with me on that.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
The question is to identify who's responsible.
With respect, Dr. Fry, when you talk about the managers, it's as if suddenly we have a bunch of managers who are certified health care professionals, who are nurses, who are long-term care professionals and who are suddenly not doing their job. I find that a little hard to accept as the reason that this happened, because those people are extremely dedicated and work very hard every day, and they have no interest in not doing their job well. To me, the people who had an interest in saving money are the ones we need to look at, who are responsible for that higher rate of death.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
Again, I think that what was discovered in the report was that saving money was one of the big reasons, but other reasons were that they had untrained staff who were scared.... They were scared to go into rooms of people with COVID. If they were untrained, they would go in with the same paraphernalia and the same protective equipment that they had in looking after patient A and, with the same equipment, walk into the room of patient B. They didn't have staff who were equipped, trained and able to provide the quality of care.
Again, we're back to that: People were being hired, but they couldn't pay RNs or they couldn't pay people with the kind of training that was needed to provide that care.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
With respect, it leads right back to the question I was talking about: Who made the financial decisions that created that situation?
With that, Mr. Chair, I'll conclude my questions.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you.
Dr. Fry, thank you for presenting the bill and answering all the questions. I'm sure we'll have more witnesses in the coming days and be able to flesh it out and give back a thorough report. I want to thank you.
I will adjourn the meeting, because there's going to be a subcommittee meeting.