Justice Committee on June 12th, 2023

[Elene Lam]

We see that sex workers who help other people to do advertising or help family members to communicate are already being charged under the law related to sex work. With this, not only will they be charged under the sex worker law, but they will also be charged under the trafficking law. They are facing 14 years in prison. This law covers not only sex workers. For any kind of racialized people, we see how racial profiling is happening now. When prosecutors and police have so much power, they can interpret this law in whatever way. Not only people who work in the sex industry but even people in intimate partner relationships or in any kind of working relationship may also be charged as traffickers. We see that racialized people are being targeted, and we see police already targeting sex work. This will become a powerful tool for the police to harass the sex worker and charge the sex worker, even though no one wants them to be in their life and no trafficking or exploitation is going on. This actually makes them more vulnerable, because their workplace is being raided and the place is being shut down.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Diab.

Next we'll go to rounds of two and a half minutes, beginning with Monsieur Perron.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will try to be brief because two and a half minutes is not a lot of time.

Ms. Wood, I would like you to please give short answers.

You spoke earlier of a high rate of people in the field who are completely independent. What would you say is the ratio of people who are trafficked to those who do it willingly?

[Holly Wood]

That research has not necessarily been done. I think that when it come down to independence, we have to remember the Bedford case, which allows sex workers to hire drivers, security guards and individuals to make sure they make it home safe at the end of the day. It would be my hope that with proper judicial training a judge would be able to differentiate, but I don't think those statistics necessarily exist.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ka Hon Chu or Ms. Lam, I don't know if either of you can answer the question. What do you think the ratio is? You seem to be saying that many of these people are consenting.

[Elene Lam]

I think this is the question you asked: How many people in marital relationships feel forced and in a relationship they feel puts them in vulnerable situations? I think this is very difficult, because this is a power dynamic. Our focus is to see how our intervention actually supports people so they can have more power resources and can negotiate better conditions, no matter if it's in their intimate relationship or their workplace. That's why the income support, like social support, particularly from the community, is a very important way to make people.... We see so many—

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lam. I apologize for interrupting, but I only have 30 seconds left.

At the end of the day, that's not an easy question to answer. That's the point I was trying to make. It's difficult for us.

The aim of the bill is to protect vulnerable people. Earlier, it was suggested we introduce the notion of exploiting a vulnerability, rather than rejecting the whole bill.

Do you think that including this notion could improve things?

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

Is that a question for the two of us?

No. I don't think it would improve capturing exploitation. Improving capturing exploitation would mean allowing people in the sex industry to have access to labour rights, employment rights and occupational health and safety rights. You're just muddying the waters right now if you add that condition.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

We have Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, for Elene and Sandra, is it fair to say that your argument in your brief is that if we decriminalized all the aspects of sex work that remain criminalized in this country, we would actually reduce trafficking and the dangers of trafficking?

[Elene Lam]

Yes, definitely.

When we work with the community, that fear of the police and law enforcement is the major source of what might create unsafe working conditions and create vulnerability in the workers. Take away the criminal law, including sex workers, clients and third parties, so that they can have a support system and work safely. It's very important.

The other thing, of course, is that status for income support is another kind of very important measure to make it so people can have safe working conditions. Take away the criminal law through the decriminalization of sex work and do not assume that the third party is exploiting and trafficking. This is also very important.

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

Can I just jump in quickly?

The experience in New Zealand is instructive, because they decriminalized in 2003. Sex workers there have access to labour tribunals, human rights tribunals and all the protections that other people in other legal decriminalized sectors have access to. They have brought people who have exploited and abused them to those tribunals to fight for their rights. I think that is an instructive example.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe my time has expired.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for your very valuable testimony. I appreciate your coming. I apologize once again for cancelling the last time.

This was a pretty fulfilling meeting. I think everybody got their questions in and pulled some answers out of them. Thank you.

I have just one piece of committee business for all the members. I believe it is to pass the budget for the study on S-225. Is everyone okay with that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you. That's it. We will adjourn, and I'll see you on Wednesday.

Thank you.