Justice Committee on Oct. 19th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Do you have a comment, Mr. Fortin?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I won't waste the committee's time. Mr. Caputo took the words right out of my mouth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

We'll go to you, Mr. Brock, followed by Mr. Maloney.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want everyone at this committee to remark not only on the evidence that we've heard from victims and victim groups but also from some members of this particular committee who have been around for a couple of years.

We've heard from a number of victims over the course of my tenure as a new parliamentarian, and the message was extremely consistent from the victims: It was that they feel that the Crown attorneys and the criminal justice system are completely unresponsive to their needs.

They want information. They want to feel part of the litigation. They want to feel part of the team. It's for that very reason that I'm asking the Liberal bench to consider amending this to strengthen it or to simply to delete it. The victims want to have information shared by the Crown. They don't want a Crown attorney to simply say that the order has been made but that they can't say anything because they'll put themselves in a conflict of interest.

Crowns have an obligation to the community. They are public servants. They are ministers of justice, but they cannot and should not exclude witnesses in discussing pertinent and really relevant information, which this currently is.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Briefly, I don't disagree with what Mr. Caputo and Mr. Brock have said. I just interpret the language used in the section prior to the amendment as being restrictive.

The amendment in no way restricts anybody with a prosecutorial hat from providing that information, whereas the language in there, as I see it, puts a prosecutor in a situation of having to provide information that is going to elicit questions from the person they're talking to, which could then take them down the road of putting them into that conflict, and that's what we're trying to avoid.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Okay. I am going to call the question now.

Colleagues, shall G-1 carry?

Mr. Clerk, can we please have a recorded vote?

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I will now move to PV-5. That is deemed moved.

For your information, if PV-5 is adopted, PV-6 cannot be proceeded with.

Go ahead, Ms. May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dear colleagues, I do hope everyone will give this amendment a real chance. It should not create any issues for anyone, regardless of whatever party you're with.

This amendment is so clearly in the victims' interests, and it doesn't create a burden in terms of locating a victim to get their awareness of an order before issuing it. This is simply to ensure that when the order has been made—as you can see here—a copy of the order is provided to them.

We know from cases in real life of people who've survived sexual assault that this is an extraordinary reality. To survive a sexual assault, to go to the police, to successfully apprehend the perpetrator, to actually achieve a court decision that there has been a sexual assault and the perpetrator is sentenced.... It's to ensure that the victim is aware that they've been placed under a publication ban, so they can't use their own name. We must at least be sure that the publication ban is something they are aware of so that they don't inadvertently, after all of that, fall afoul of the law and end up being fined or sanctioned for violating a publication ban by using their own name.

I beg of you to please pass amendment PV-5. It's very straightforward.

Now, I'm not allowed, under the terms of your order, to participate in debate, so I'm just anticipating any questions. This is very straightforward and I do hope that my colleagues will see fit to accept this amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

Shall PV-5 carry?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Is there not going to be a recorded vote?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

There can only be a recorded vote if somebody asks. I don't feel it's my—

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I know I'm not allowed to do that.

[An hon. member]

With all due respect, Madam Chair, you can't just assume.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Well, they said “no” and we said “yes”, so I would like a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

If you ask, you can have it, for sure. I don't believe that I as chair should be telling you to have a recorded vote, which I did before.

My apologies for doing that before. If somebody requests it, by all means, but it's not up to the chair.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

PV-6 is deemed moved.

Shall PV-6 carry?

(Amendment negatived)

We're on PV-7.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Chair, I have an absolute right, under the terms of the motion....

I'm sorry, but I was trying to get my hand up. The functions are very difficult. I just get a hand up and get off mute to beg for something that in most committees, I have to say, is more automatic, which is to have a right to speak before my amendment is defeated.

I'm so sorry, Madam Chair. I'm sorry to be emotional, but I was so shocked there—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I can tell you that I had my eyes glued to the screen and I did not see your hand.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I couldn't get it up in time because of the little cursor thing wobbling all over. It doesn't always go directly to “raise hand”. It's a little more difficult. I'm sorry, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We will continue with PV-7.

If you want to put your hand up, please do.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

What happened to PV-6?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I believe everybody on the committee voted against it. This one did not need a—

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I'd like to see a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I don't believe you have the right to request of the chair to have a recorded vote.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I know that the people from My Voice, My Choice, who are watching this, would like to know who votes against their amendments. My amendments come from their testimony.