Justice Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Danette Thomsen]

I agree with Linda that we need to actually show value to the people who are caring for our members out there and for the public. We need to tell them and to show them that this is not okay and that we don't expect them to go to work and be beat up every day.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, ladies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to pick up on what Mr. Brock was asking, because I was going to go down the same path.

Ms. Silas, you said something along the lines that we need to look further, but you talked about prevention versus the Criminal Code.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm just pontificating here a little bit.

When police are encountering somebody, it's probably that someone is engaging in a criminal act. However, when people are dealing with health professionals, like nurses or paramedics, those may be people who are in circumstances that don't involve a criminal act or criminal behaviour, but those are still the ones who are involved in some of the conduct we're talking about.

We're all in agreement, I think, on this bill, frankly, and I want to thank Mr. Doherty for bringing it forward. It's further to Bill C-3, as you pointed out quite rightly. Is this going to be enough? There seems to be a much bigger problem, so I'm not sure that amending the Criminal Code to say that if you spit on a nurse, as the example you used, the amendment is going to act as a deterrent.

What else needs to be done? As parliamentarians, what else can we do to create an environment where we can prevent that type of behaviour? I'm asking because the numbers I'm hearing are staggering.

[Linda Silas]

I would go back and read the HESA report of 2019. The HESA report on violence in health care gave strict recommendations, and prevention was number one. I couldn't have written the report better myself. We have to talk about prevention. We have to talk about a culture change, and it goes from safe staffing to proper occupational health and safety.

Look at the past pandemic. Health care workers had to fight to get the proper PPE. We would never have seen that in a construction zone, because we do not look at health care the same way as any other workforce. That's why we're in a mess today.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I have a follow-up on that. Does anybody else have a comment on the general proposition? Ms. Donnelly, I was hoping you might. I'm a graduate of the University of Windsor, by the way, so I'm glad you're here.

[Dr. Elizabeth Donnelly]

I congratulate you on your excellent taste. Well done.

I would say that it's not either-or. Changing legislation is prevention. There have been a number of examples of success stories, such as in Peel Region, where if they're getting multiple violence reports, they can reach out to that person and say, “If you continue to do this, these are the possible consequences. If you continue to do this, these are the ways in which we may respond.”

Creating the legislation changes police attitudes and changes police responses to the violence. It changes the lens with which the Crown looks at those incidents, so it's definitely not an either-or.

I said before in my comments that this has to be comprehensive. Changing legislation is a critical piece, but it is just a piece, and those other elements that I mentioned earlier are still so needed.

Thank you.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

That's where I was going, because we can amend the Criminal Code and introduce other legislation at the federal level, but much of what you're talking about falls to the provinces and industry? What can we do to encourage better conduct, or conduct that's going to help with other levels of government?

I'm asking because I suspect funding is a big part of this. You talked about PPE during the pandemic. One of the big issues that the health care profession faced was a shortage of funding from provincial governments. I live in Ontario, and the federal government had to step in and to fill that gap.

What should other levels of government do to address some of those issues?

[Linda Silas]

To change a culture, every level of government needs to speak about it and to take it as a priority. That's what we're seeing now.

We talk about hope. Last September, for the first time in history, a police alert went out in Ottawa for a man driving a red truck. He had assaulted health care workers and nurses in a facility. It was the first time in history. That was the success of Bill C-3. Now we need to go further than that; that's the only one we ever heard.

For the first time in history, a man in New Brunswick went to jail for two years for assaulting a nurse. She will never work again, but for the first time in history there was criminal justice. That created a ripple effect to cause more prevention, more occupational health and safety methods to prevent violence, by tagging family members and by tagging patients. When I say “tagging”, it means that if they have a past behaviour of violence, there are special rules the team needs to know.

[Danette Thomsen]

I'd like to answer that.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Yes, okay, please. I was going to ask you to. I thought I had five minutes.

[Danette Thomsen]

We've had some good work happening here in B.C. Recently, the Ministry of Health announced that we have 26 relational security officers hired. It's just a new project. We know that there are going to be glitches, but these are security officers who are trained and who will be working as part of the team at our high-risk sites. However, they need to be everywhere.

They also need to be able to actually take down somebody who needs to be taken down or remove from facilities people who are behaving inappropriately. That is not the job of a nurse, and oftentimes police take too long to get there because their slates are full too, and that's no judgment.

We're excited about this new program, but it's just so minute. We need so much more to happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Monsieur Fortin for six minutes, please.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. This is an important topic, and we can never have enough insights.

Ms. Donnelly, in 2021, Parliament passed provisions amending paragraph 718.2(a) of the Criminal Code. Subparagraph 718.2(a)(iii.2) was added to make an offence committed against a person providing health services, including personal care services, an aggravating circumstance for sentencing.

In your view, has that provision affected the prevalence of assaults against health workers?

[Dr. Elizabeth Donnelly]

I'm afraid I don't have enough familiarity with that legislation and its impact to comment with any sort of specificity.

I'm hoping that perhaps my colleagues might have some thoughts. I'm very sorry.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Does that mean you didn't hear about the provision when it came into force in 2021?

[Dr. Elizabeth Donnelly]

I haven't seen it being operationalized yet in any of the interactions I've seen in trying to have charges laid against folks who assault paramedics. However, as I mentioned earlier, we have a lot of organizational hurdles, such as paramedics reporting, police feeling like something may warrant charges, and the Crown deciding to lay charges, so whether or not that previous legislation has affected it, we still have a lot of work to do around organizational culture to—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Donnelly. I understand what you're saying. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I have a limited amount of time.

I'd like to ask Ms. Silas the same question.

Ms. Silas, in your role at the Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions, have you heard of the provision, and if so, has it had any impact?

[Linda Silas]

Just to clarify, are you referring to the change that was made through Bill C‑3?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Yes, I think it was Bill C‑3.

[Linda Silas]

Yes, I've heard of it.

As I said, in September, we received a news release alerting us that a man driving a red truck had assaulted nurses and health care workers in Ottawa. That was the first time in history we had received such an alert. It was the only time we were ever informed of an incident like that.

What Bill C‑3 was missing was an education component, and we talked about that with the former justice minister. If you talk to a police officer or a lawyer in your region, you will see that they have no idea the provision exists.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

Subparagraph 718.2(a)(iii.2) is similar to what's being proposed now in Bill C-321. The provision refers to an offence committed against a person who is providing health services, including personal care services.

Aren't you concerned that the provision in this bill duplicates that? If not, how do the two provisions complement one another, in your view?

[Linda Silas]

We aren't at all concerned about that, because we are talking about a group of workers who work outside the health care system. They are part of it, but they work primarily in the community. That group of workers identified a need, and as an organization representing nurses unions, we want to support them. As a society, we should protect all health workers.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

There is no disagreement there.

Sorry to cut you off, but I have just about a minute left.

The existing provision in the Criminal Code refers to a person providing health services. The bill currently before the committee, Bill C‑321, captures health care professionals and first responders. The Criminal Code already covers people who provide health services, including personal care services.

They seem to do the same thing. I could be wrong, but I'd really like to hear your thoughts on that.

[Linda Silas]

The difference is that this bill captures first responders as well. First responders don't work in the same settings as health care workers. That's why we were fine with it.

We met with people from MP Doherty's team. I'm having a hard time saying his name in French.