Evidence of meeting #84 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions
I should hope so. I'm from New Brunswick, but saying his name in French is a bit tough.
During those meetings, we asked the same thing you're asking, Mr. Fortin, and we were all in agreement on that. This group of health workers is really different from other health care professionals.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Aren't first responders people who provide health services? It seems to me that they are.
5:10 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions
They are, but those workers are saying that's not the case. Out of respect for their work, that's what we did.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.
I hope this process is part of that beginning to change the culture and that your appearances here today really do help to get that message across.
Ms. Donnelly, I'm particularly glad to see you here today, because of the technical problems we had before. I know you were quite frustrated in the attempt to appear. We are in a different room, and it appears to be working well.
Sending the message of respect to the workers is particularly important, and sending a message to the public is also important. What I want to talk a bit more about, because everyone will always say that the other things cost money, is what we're seeing and what I'm hearing from the witnesses, which is that the current situation costs the system money.
I am going to go first to Ms. Donnelly regarding paramedics. Can you say a bit more about the costs to the system of the prevalence of violence in terms of time off and in terms of retention of employees? How is this impacting the spending costs for paramedics?
5:10 p.m.
Associate Professor, School of Social Work, University of Windsor, As an Individual
I wish I could give you all the numbers, but we don't have enough research. This area is just emerging. As such, we have a lot of anecdotal evidence that people are leaving. They are burning out. They are choosing to leave because there is a lot of moral injury, which is this idea that I am here to help and I'm being abused because I'm showing up to help. We don't have clear data that says this is the cost of violence, differentiating it from the different kinds of stresses paramedics are currently experiencing.
I did point out, in my earlier statements, to evidence that is correlational between exposure to violence and intent to leave the profession in other disciplines. Hopefully, in the next couple of years, I should be able to provide that data for you.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Would you essentially agree that it is a factor that adds extra costs into providing this service?
5:10 p.m.
Associate Professor, School of Social Work, University of Windsor, As an Individual
Yes, it is, 100%.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I will go next to Ms. Silas in terms of the costs to the system on nursing.
5:10 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions
I personally didn't bring it up, but Danette did talk about it. About 30% of workers' compensation claims deal with violence, and that's just for B.C. We see the same thing across the country. Numbers regarding violence and injury more than doubled in the last two years. Again, that's from B.C.
It is a big cost, but the biggest cost is what Danette was saying, which is that people don't want to go into health care. We just spent a day on a centre for health care human resources, and our biggest challenge is how to make health care jobs attractive again. When they hear all of us talk about violence in health care, it is not very attractive.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Ms. Thomsen, you were the one who brought the most specific things to us, so maybe I can turn back to you and allow you to say a bit more about this.
5:10 p.m.
British Columbia Regional Council Member, North East Region, British Columbia Nurses' Union
Stats Canada's most recent data showed that by the end of the third quarter of 2023, there were 5,825 nurse vacancies in B.C. That's an increase from 5,300 last year. That in itself, the fact that we're at 5,825 nurses....
I'm telling you, you can just look at our rates of casual employees. Nurses don't want to work full time. When things are getting ugly, they need to be able to pull off, so it's costing us in many, many ways that are not even measured.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
In terms of support services being made available to employees, such as counselling or therapy, are you finding that the increase in violence is accepted as a reason for receiving those support services?
5:15 p.m.
British Columbia Regional Council Member, North East Region, British Columbia Nurses' Union
Those support services in B.C. are so overused that sometimes it's taking our members six weeks to get help after they have witnessed a violent incident. We're pushing for critical-incident stress debriefing and all those things that the employer is supposed to be providing, but even that is taking time because of the increase of the need for those services.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
The services aren't keeping up with the need for those services.
Ms. Silas, maybe you can comment on that as well.
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions
Exactly—there are not enough services. We not only have to heal these health care workers; we also have to prevent. That's the biggest thing we have to do. We have to prevent. That's with safe staffing and with appropriate security mechanisms in all of our facilities—and community, Elizabeth.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Ms. Silas, would you say that the general understaffing that we see in terms of nursing jobs then makes nurses more vulnerable to the violence on the job?
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions
Have you been in an ER lately, Mr. Garrison? You know, when you wait 18 hours or 12 hours and you're sick, you lose patience, so yes, of course there's more backlash.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you very much.
We'll now begin our second round.
Mr. Doherty, you have five minutes, please.
November 23rd, 2023 / 5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to my colleagues for allowing me to sit in on this, and thank you to our guests.
Ms. Silas and Danette, Bill C-321 came out of conversations we had, very honest and very frank conversations, earlier on when we were dealing with my bill, Bill C-211, on PTSD.
I have the questions and I have the backgrounder that Mr. Fortin was looking for. I will send that information to the committee.
I don't want to take up any more time trying to answer your question, Mr. Fortin. I will get you the information that I have. I'll send it through my colleague here.
I think what we need to hear more of is the voices of our guests who are here. I spoke to a group of nurses in northern B.C. two years ago at the invitation of Ms. Thomsen. When I mentioned the proposal of this bill, it brought tears to nurses around the room. It was a very emotional time.
Through you, Madam Chair, I would like to ask our guests this question: Why does just talking about the proposal of this bill evoke so much emotion with your membership?
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions
It's recognizing that there's a problem. It's a question of respect. You know, to change the Criminal Code, the first one with Bill C-3 and even the framework on PTSD, we had to talk to our own colleagues. They actually didn't believe that a sick patient or an angry patient should be charged or that a nurse should be calling the police. There was a lot of education to be done there. They really thought it was part of our job.
We changed that. With the work with MPs, like all of you, we were able to change that. Now we need to do the education on it.